Isolated Bass Tracks - Interesting....

[gjones]

Music is all about 'feel' not perfection. If the performance and feel of a track is good it doesn't matter if the actual playing is a bit sloppy. The quest for perfection can sometimes result in sterile and soulless music.

It's called the human touch.

Edited March 10, 2013 by gjones

[JTUK]

The thing is that when people get to a certain level engrs can't pull them up on it ..or daren't...
but you wont get a studio gig with that sort of playing in the first instance...

I think it will mix down ok but you woundn't be happy to be solo'd ...and there would probably be a lot of fixing
which again is time and money which some people wouldn't or couldn't spend.

[BetaFunk]

This doesn't sound too bad to me

http://youtu.be/z91l_lPz1oc

[chris_b]

I think these isolated tracks are interesting.

They are about someone who is at the top of his game, and usually someone who I rate, putting themselves on the line.

I like that it can produce a "warts and all" result.

These tracks should make us appreciate the job studio engineers do, even more.

[Ziphoblat]

I think that's a fairly condescending and elitist way to look at this. Put it into context. He's playing for several hours consecutively, using a technique that requires a [i]lot[/i] of physical strength, there's no chance for a second take, he probably can't hear himself as perfectly well as he could in a studio, he's also singing at the same time (and activating foot pedals for the synth parts) where-as in the studio the bass part would be the sole focus of his attention. Under those circumstances I think it's a fantastic performance. I don't really notice any errors at all. There's a lot of string noise and the like, but that's the kind of stuff that actually sounds good in the context of a mix when you're going for such an aggressive sound. Ultimately, in the mix this performance is going to sound great (and I actually really enjoyed listening to it solo) and Geddy was listening to it in a mix. Perhaps his performance doesn't hold up quite as well when taken into a context that it wasn't intended for, but then surely that's to be expected? I think it would be naive to expect that a player is going to get studio-quality results in one live take, especially when playing something as technically challenging as Rush.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Ziphoblat

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1362918025' post='2006117']
The thing is that when people get to a certain level engrs can't pull them up on it ..or daren't...
but you wont get a studio gig with that sort of playing in the first instance...

I think it will mix down ok but you woundn't be happy to be solo'd ...and there would probably be a lot of fixing
which again is time and money which some people wouldn't or couldn't spend.
[/quote]

Agreed. I bet there isn't many of us that would do a take in the studio and leave mistakes or bad timing in it without wanting to try and fox it or doa re ake, even if it did sound ok in the mix.
Sloppy can work, I should know as that's my style , but so much is made about "in the pocket", "locking in" etc I'm can't imagine not trying to get things as good as possible.
Live is another matter though.

[Lozz196]

Having worked both ways, all playing/recording live (aside from lead vocs) and getting the take with the best feel, and alternatively all recording separately and making sure every last note is perfect, I`ve always preferred the final mix/eq-ing/mastered version of the former. It always just seems to have more "go" about it. But then, coming from an old punk, it`s hardly a surprising opinion, I suppose.

[HMX]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1362877142' post='2005833']
Just out of interest, check out how ridiculously tight Dave Ellefson's playing is!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rN5N84lUFY[/media]
[/quote]
Amen. Ellefson is a beast!

[HMX]

Like others have said, a load of isolated bass tones sound like crap (Ellefson's excepted IMO).

Even some of Harris' old stuff sounds naff:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s04pKg8KFHo[/youtube]

But still amazing within the band setting, right?

[lefrash]

I love hearing These isolated tracks.

I'm sure its the same for most folk on here, but whenever I've recorded I generally hate hearing myself playing in isolation, due to fret buzzes, timing issues and general sh*te tone issues etc but as others have said, thats what makes the music breath. Makes it human. Its nice to hear other bassists (especially iconic ones) having the same issues that I face when recording.

I would love to hear jamiroquai (I'm thinking the album syncronised mainly) in isolation, before any production.

[untune]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1362918502' post='2006122']
This doesn't sound too bad to me

[media]http://youtu.be/z91l_lPz1oc[/media]
[/quote]

The amount of times I've listened to this to try and match that tone - the crazy thing is, it's so simple and yet still so difficult to hit it bang on. The tone in this case is more about the stages AFTER the bass (the DI, the desk, the tape etc) - it's after all basically just a precision wide open - but then again the string mute is what gives it that great attack.

The great thing about Motown recordings is that they were so distorted and still sound fantastic, especially on the bass where that bit of grit isn't obvious in the mix like it is in isolation. Listen to the bass from My Girl, it's filthy!

Edited March 10, 2013 by untune

[AttitudeCastle]

A good example is John Myung from Dream Theater, his Isolated parts sound quite sloppy and the tones are usually a bit naff but in the mix they sound killer nad ultra tight.

If you can find them, Duff McKagan's isolated parts are usually super super tight!

[discreet]

[quote name='AttitudeCastle' timestamp='1362944297' post='2006575']
If you can find them, Duff McKagan's isolated parts are usually super super tight!
[/quote]

Not really an isolated track, but worth listening to... note the importance of the kick drum to the overall bass sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLUny5ZbZI4&list=PLDF23278CD4BA07CF&index=10

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='HMX' timestamp='1362943005' post='2006545']
Like others have said, a load of isolated bass tones sound like crap (Ellefson's excepted IMO).

Even some of Harris' old stuff sounds naff:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s04pKg8KFHo[/media]

But still amazing within the band setting, right?
[/quote]

Totally! Cliff Burton is another one. I would never pick his tone on Ride The Lightning for my own setup.. But it's the best 'in the mix' tone of every Metallica album I've ever heard! Especially the slides during the verse riff on For Whom The Bell Tolls, they always make me pull involuntary metal faces

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FO6MU7uqzs

[White Cloud]

If Geddys performance is in any way wrong...then I dont want to be right.

Its all about feel live, thats what makes us human.

[dave_bass5]

I get the feeling that some are separating feel and tight playing. You know you can have both ;-).

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1362949749' post='2006700']
I get the feeling that some are separating feel and tight playing. You know you can have both ;-).
[/quote]

I can't

[dave_bass5]

No, neither can I unfortunately.

[jezzaboy]

Regarding the Rush clip, what you have to remember is as it`s live, Ged is playing bass, singing and possibly triggering keyboard effects via footswitches at the same time.

Wish I was that sloppy

[51m0n]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1362913854' post='2006037']
The click track is just like any other tool or aid. Sometimes you need it and sometimes you don't. To say that using a click track is always bad is as stupid as saying that you have to use one all the time.
[/quote]

+1 If players can really play 'around' the click to make a groove thats immense, and yet stays on the money for pulse then thats an absolute winner fo rdance music and funk as well as rock and pop.

Of course if your players cant make the magic happen to click you find out real quick, and then its all a little ghastly anyway usually, click or no click, IME of tracking bands. There is only so much slop that I want in a final production, I dont mind some in some genres but I do let the timekeeping and pitchkeeping fascist out of the box when a band strays into sounding p*** poor, after all they want a good sounding product and out of time and pitchy work sounds dead amateur these days....

[discreet]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1362913854' post='2006037']
The click track is just like any other tool or aid. Sometimes you need it and sometimes you don't. To say that using a click track is always bad is as stupid as saying that you have to use one all the time.
[/quote]

Oh dear, busted. Of course you're right, how stupid of me. I bet you're loads of fun at parties.

[BigRedX]

When we're practicing for a recording we'll try the songs with and without a click to see which works best. Sometimes the click helps, sometimes it gets in the way of the subtle tempo changes that we've unconsciously introduced into the track.

On our last EP some of the tracks were recorded playing to a click and some weren't. Can you tell which?

[Dingus]

If I might wade into this click track debate , I find that on my good timing days I am able to hone in to the drum track or the click track if one is in effect without much problem , but on my bad timing days even the click won't neccesarilly get me into line . Maybe I just play the same regardless , and maybe I am not alone in that .

[risingson]

It's fair to say that there is no right or wrong way to do anything in a studio environment, click or no click have both worked for my band and I in the past, depending on whether the track's pulse/groove/whatever negates the need for a click. Sometimes you need it to pull everyone in line - I find it works well for our rhythm section (me, keys, drums) to record to a click on certain tunes and do guitars later, other times it's nicer to have a more 'live' feeling track where we all play together, no click.

It's definitely a myth that it somehow creates a sterile feel or whatever, if you think about it even if you're playing with the tightest drummer ever to live, most of us will introduce our own little rhythmic imprints and inflections at are intrinsic to our playing. We ain't robots, even if we play along to robots!

[rushbo]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1362918502' post='2006122']
This doesn't sound too bad to me

[media]http://youtu.be/z91l_lPz1oc[/media]
[/quote]

Luscious.

The little root/fifth/octave dealio at 1.44 ish is worth the price of admission alone.