When some BCers say they're not much cop at bass.....

[Owen]

I have plenty of hangups about my playing. I know loads of people who can play better than I can. However, a drummer who knows once told me I put the beat in a sexy place and that is good enough for me.

[Waddo Soqable]

I'm not "technical" at all, but I can play as well as I need to for what I do (or have done).. and guess I've always been fairly good at coming up with riffs /grooves/ ideas to build songs or pieces on, or suss out a suitable part for other people's material. 

I pretty much never "practice" as such but find I can generally put the thing down for some time and then pick it straight up again with no loss.

I could never play in an outfit that required reading the dots or similar, then again I wouldn't really want to anyway 😁

I'd say the important part is to provide just what the piece of music requires, no more, no less. 

[Beedster]

I consider myself technically a very average bass player, very average, but rightly or wrongly I also consider myself to be musically/artistically and acoustically/structurally literate. The best compliment I ever received from a fellow musician was: "You're one of those players who no-one notices until you stop playing". I try to live by that, don't stand out, be part of the whole, but nonetheless make a difference. You don't have to be much cop at bass to do that 👍

[OliverBlackman]

10 hours ago, TimR said:

We should do a survey with areas and levels and see where everyone lies on a scale. 

 

I'd suggest anyone playing gigs is a 'good' player. At least other musicians are confident in your abilities and audiences aren't walking out.

 

 

I played a one off gig with a guitarist who studied at Berklee and is a stinky poo hot player. However, the gig was in a small bar and he brought his stadium ready Marshall stack. Within 2 songs the place emptied….

[tauzero]

51 minutes ago, sandy_r said:

 

sorry to be the bearer of bad news - i'd offer to let you shoot the messenger, but i'm already shot

 

...wrt messrs Dunning&Kruger, they must feel a certain vindication now, when they see people still quoting and applying a debunked 'Effect' 😉

 

 

I found this article https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/how-do-you-know/202012/dunning-kruger-isnt-real which seems to me to be fundamentally flawed because if everybody has a positive bias then the "perceived" and "actual" lines can never intersect, "perceived" will always exceed "actual".

[Marky L]

Rated as - Adequate

[Dan Dare]

Being competent will do for me. As long as I play the right notes in the right order, I'm happy.

[steantval]

I’m definitely not as competent as I was, say twenty years ago.

I listen back to some of the bands I have recorded with and think I just cannot play to that level anymore.

I think a lot of it is due to old age and the dexterity is not what it used to be.

[ahpook]

 

17 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

There are serious scientific methods for determining the answers to questions like this. Here is one of the more accessible ones ...

 

The-Full-Study-Model-The-mediating-effect-of-the-authentic-self-in-the-relation-between attachment and emotional intelligence and fragmented cognitive concepts. Note: * p < .05; Choice = Choicefulness; FSC = Fragmented Self Concept; FRC = Fragmented Relationship Concept; all factor loadings on each correspondent latent variable were significant at ps < .001.

 

 

 

Citation required. All uncited work will be regarded as author's opinion unless supported by original research - Library Ed.

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by ahpook

[sandy_r]

53 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

I found this article https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/how-do-you-know/202012/dunning-kruger-isnt-real which seems to me to be fundamentally flawed because if everybody has a positive bias then the "perceived" and "actual" lines can never intersect, "perceived" will always exceed "actual".

 

...there's a helpful 'takeaway' comment at the end of that paper:

"Incidentally, Vincent argues that this shows that there is a Dunning-Kruger effect, because people are biased, but that’s it’s just a different effect from the one in the literature. Knowing more doesn’t make people less biased: Everyone’s equally biased. I’m saying this means we have a different effect, but the argument is just about whether we shift the meaning of Dunning-Kruger or use a different label."

[TimR]

53 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

I found this article https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/how-do-you-know/202012/dunning-kruger-isnt-real which seems to me to be fundamentally flawed because if everybody has a positive bias then the "perceived" and "actual" lines can never intersect, "perceived" will always exceed "actual".

 

"Everyone thinks they're better than average." 

 

Certainly true for people who drive cars, doesn't seem to be true for bass players. 

 

I suggest it depends on the subject. I can't imagine many people think they're better than average at Rocket Science or Brain Surgery.

 

Does the Dunning Kruger effect only apply to knowledge rather than skills. People spend years working in specialist fields, how much of their knowledge is acquired on a daily basis, how much of it is learned through jumps other people make, and how much through experiences. 

 

In my field of work it's a mixture but the guys who have lots of experience tend to know more, presumably because actually doing something is a huge advantage over just reading about how to do it.

 

So I guess people need to be humble and realise just because they watched a video on how to do something, doesn't mean they can do it. But again that depends on the application and the difficulty. 

[tauzero]

2 minutes ago, sandy_r said:

 

...there's a helpful 'takeaway' comment at the end of that paper:

"Incidentally, Vincent argues that this shows that there is a Dunning-Kruger effect, because people are biased, but that’s it’s just a different effect from the one in the literature. Knowing more doesn’t make people less biased: Everyone’s equally biased. I’m saying this means we have a different effect, but the argument is just about whether we shift the meaning of Dunning-Kruger or use a different label."

 

So it would appear that the only difference is whether the level of bias changes with knowledge/ignorance (Dunning Kruger is true) or whether it remains constant.

[ahpook]

It's odd...I've received very few compliments about my bass playing over the years, and those only from friends, so possibly not 100% unbiased opinion. I'm quite open about saying how much I enjoyed what someone's played or the part they've come up with...I know not everyone feels that relaxed doing that.

 

When I read about folks here having old band members call them up to get new stuff together...also never happened to me...

 

Maybe I'm not very good after all ! There are certainly days when I look at my bass collection and think 'who am I fooling?'.

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by ahpook

[Woodinblack]

11 hours ago, TimR said:

I'd suggest anyone playing gigs is a 'good' player. At least other musicians are confident in your abilities and audiences aren't walking out.

 

I know that to be untrue!

[tony_m]

19 hours ago, Happy Jack said:

On more than one occasion, I haven't even been the best bass player in the band ...

 

In one of my previous bands, I was most definitely the third "best" bass player out of the five of us, the guitarist and drummist both being way ahead of me in terms of competence and experience! 

 

Since then, though, my confidence in my own ability has grown, especially since I joined my current band. OK, my technique is still pretty limited compared to some (many / most?), but as long as I strike the right balance between speed and complexity, I know I can keep things nice and solid - it helps that Mr Drums is so good (absolutely metronomic, counts literally everything from the first beat of the intro to the last of the outro, and the words "that'll do" simply don't exist in his vocabulary), that as long as I lock in with him, everything will be just fine.

[AndyTravis]

2 hours ago, Beedster said:

The best compliment I ever received from a fellow musician was: "You're one of those players who no-one notices until you stop playing". 

“when you stop playing Trav, we can hear the bloody song…”

 

was my version of this 🤣

[EssexBuccaneer]

I remember laying down a demo many years ago. My guitarist was getting stressed out because he couldn’t nail the timing on an intro (came in on an off-beat, and was generally a bit weird tbf). Anyhoo, time was ticking on and he was getting more and more worked up.

 

In the end I picked up his guitar and laid it down myself while he went for a smoke. He was over the moon that I’d done it for him. I can’t think of anything more mortifying than someone else laying down my part in a studio 😲

[Beedster]

34 minutes ago, EssexBuccaneer said:

I remember laying down a demo many years ago. My guitarist was getting stressed out because he couldn’t nail the timing on an intro (came in on an off-beat, and was generally a bit weird tbf). Anyhoo, time was ticking on and he was getting more and more worked up.

 

In the end I picked up his guitar and laid it down myself while he went for a smoke. He was over the moon that I’d done it for him. I can’t think of anything more mortifying than someone else laying down my part in a studio 😲

 

If anyone in my band could play the line better than me, especially if it's either going to improve a recording or save studio time/costs, they'd be welcome. It's not exactly unheard of even among well known/virtuoso performers

[sandy_r]

2 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

So it would appear that the only difference is whether the level of bias changes with knowledge/ignorance (Dunning Kruger is true) or whether it remains constant.

 

...the math modelling highlighted that D-K results were based on imperfectly related variables; what's left is a truism based on self-perception and -bias;  we can either redefine D-K to be this 'new' relation, or we can give it a new name - maybe the 'Gallien Krueger' effect, in honour of @neepheid's stirling work on that Ad earlier?

 

...meanwhile, back to the topic...

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by sandy_r

[TimR]

33 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

If anyone in my band could play the line better than me, especially if it's either going to improve a recording or save studio time/costs, they'd be welcome. It's not exactly unheard of even among well known/virtuoso performers

 

Some players can't even remember playing on some recordings.

 

But that may be for other reasons. 

[Thump]

2 hours ago, Beedster said:

 

If anyone in my band could play the line better than me, especially if it's either going to improve a recording or save studio time/costs, they'd be welcome. It's not exactly unheard of even among well known/virtuoso performers

Billy Corgan is a good example of this, from what I understand his bandmates were not so appreciative of his efforts

[Muzz]

I'm no virtuoso, but I get by OK, I'm a busy player (not in terms of notes - quite the opposite - but in terms of gigging a lot), but I think that's because I also have a set of skills that can be just as important as chops (over a certain threshold, obv) in any band; I'm reliable, I'm cheerfully sociable, I'm dependable and I don't panic, and I have a professional attitude no matter what the circumstances.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Muzz

[Misdee]

On a good day I think I'm a decent bass player considering that I'm an amateur enthusiast. I could definitely have been a professional if I had wanted to be, bearing in mind that to be a professional you don't need to be great, you just need to get paid. My goal from when I got my first bass when I was twelve years old was always to be a good player. I wasn't even that bothered about being in a band. Forty-odd years later I still feel the same way and I'm still tormented by the need to improve even though I am only playing at home for my own amusement nowadays.

 

I've seen and heard some superb bass playing from Basschatters over the years, for sure. Occasionally I have also seen some very average to poor playing too, sometimes from members who have stressed and obsessed about the finer details a equipment choices. That in itself has been a valuable lesson. It's much easier to improve your equipment than your playing.  Good luck to all of them anyway. What's for sure is that if I don't have something nice to say then I say nothing at all.

 

It's worth mentioning that I've endured an awful lot (much too much) virtuosic bass playing by pro players that was  incredibly dreary and self-indulgent. I would much rather listen to amateur players who play with conviction at whatever level than have endure competent twaddle, so I definitely wouldn't necessarily equate how technically  proficient a bass player is with how enjoyable the music is. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Misdee

[Beedster]

24 minutes ago, Muzz said:

I think that's because I also have a set of skills that can be just as important as chops (over a certain threshold, obv) in any band; I'm reliable, I'm cheerfully sociable, I'm dependable and I don't panic, and I have a professional attitude no matter what the circumstances.

 

Ah different set of attributes to the rhythm guitarist in an ex band of mine who was in the band because (in order of relevance)....

 

a) He had a van

b) He had a PA

c) He carried spares of everything from guitar strings to cables to mics to drumsticks

d) He had a guitar

 

Upside: Categorically one of the most useful band members I've ever had the pleasure of driving to and setting up a gig with. Lovely lovely guy, helped with everything. Always cheerful.

 

Downside: Categorically the worst musician I have ever shared a stage with. Almost Les Dawson-esque in his note selection abeit without the immaculate sense of timing (or any sense of timing). Extremely toppy Telecaster compulsorily swamped in reverb by the rest of the band in an attempt to hide the undisciplined romp through the chromatic scale that defined his attempts to find the correct chords in each song. I lasted two gigs (in part because the singer was a complete prat as well), but still have fond memories of this guy's van, it was a 1980's music shop on wheels  

[tauzero]

3 hours ago, EssexBuccaneer said:

I remember laying down a demo many years ago. My guitarist was getting stressed out because he couldn’t nail the timing on an intro (came in on an off-beat, and was generally a bit weird tbf). Anyhoo, time was ticking on and he was getting more and more worked up.

 

In the end I picked up his guitar and laid it down myself while he went for a smoke. He was over the moon that I’d done it for him. I can’t think of anything more mortifying than someone else laying down my part in a studio 😲

 

At one recording session we were doing a song I'd written that was in 12/8 (probably) - quite straightforward, essentially the guitar part was strummed as 3/4. The guitarist could not get anywhere near it, so I had to put down the rhythm guitar. He put a solo on it, which would seem quirky to anyone who didn't know the history and would seem that he didn't have a clue what was going on to anyone who did.