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Class D - diabolical


rhysyjob

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6 hours ago, Quilly said:

Probably not but if you take an A/B amp like an Ashdown or Trace and a similarly priced class D amp. If something goes wrong with the AB amp you're more likely to be able to get it repaired. I has a couple of class D amps go bad and they just weren't worth the hassle fixing.   

 

And you shouldn't buy neck-through basses because you can't just fit a new neck on them if it breaks.

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1 hour ago, tauzero said:

 

And you shouldn't buy neck-through basses because you can't just fit a new neck on them if it breaks.

With absolutely no sarcasm at all, that’s one of the main factors in my bass purchases.

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35 minutes ago, Bunion said:

They’ll be making them out of carbon soon so they’re a one hand carry 😂🤣

Maybe that was Markbass’s recent announcement……

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9 hours ago, Lowend soldier said:

 

But of course we can tell the differences. This is getting ridiculous. Virtually every maker or seller of both these types of amps clearly state in their own youtube sale vid,s for their non class d heads, That it has an oomph over their own class d heads even.

This is not true, and most (not all) amp manufacturers no longer make class AB amps anyway, so why would they say this?

 

IME, those who do not offer class D amps are the ones who have struggled with, or stumbled badly with class D technology. Those who haven't stumbled have not looked back and continue to move forward.

9 hours ago, Lowend soldier said:

Thats ashdown, mesa, fender,aguilar ect. They all have a video where at some time they point out "this is not class d so has real old school oomph".

This is not true of Mesa, certainly since 2014 when they "discovered" how much better and more reliable class D is.

9 hours ago, Lowend soldier said:

Why do so many people sell their class d stuff and go back to the older stuff, if its not different ??? 

In most cases, they don't. 

9 hours ago, Lowend soldier said:

This was accepted along time ago in the high end audio world and most guys upgrade their modern transformers with much beefier power supply,s. Many buy huge external blocks.  The difference in how the sounds delivered is very noticeable. 

Many switchmode power supplies are MUCH beefier than their heavy line frequency supplies, especially at 230V/50Hz. A quick test of SMPS output impedance shows how obvious this is too.

9 hours ago, Lowend soldier said:

Class d amps are very usable and are so,by millions of bass players. But i just cant understand why a faction of class d users refuse too aknowledge the reason why people hump around a huge rig and pay 2-3k for a real ampeg, mesa,aguilar ect. 

What do they think all the extra components do in these huge heads 😂😂😂. Its ridiculous.

 

Why can't those folks who live and die by the heavy gear as a preference refuse to acknowledge that other players might have different preferences and tastes that are just as valid? 

 

I've designed gear in both camps, each amp model does exactly what I intended with regards to performance and voicing with ZERO regard for the amp's size, weight or technology used.

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8 hours ago, Lowend soldier said:

Yh i agree buddy. Class d amps are fine and work well for many np. But the op of this thread started it by saying "after a certain volume level, he lost his favoured sound in his class d amps due too the way the class d amps compress certain frequencies too obtain the very loud volumes. 

Thats something many of us also find. And why we chose too steer clear of class d heads. 

People are saying you cant tell the difference. I find that mind boggling. 

 

Actually, how an amp sounds when it's driven hard is not so much the type of power supply and power amp, but the intent of the designer and the choices made in voicing and dynamics of the circuitry. Music has evolved, so have the designs at the same time.

 

If the voicing and dynamics response of an older school amp or voicing choices appeal more to you, then that's what you should play, and quit disparaging those who don't share your personal preferences and tastes.

 

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10 hours ago, Quilly said:

Probably not but if you take an A/B amp like an Ashdown or Trace and a similarly priced class D amp. If something goes wrong with the AB amp you're more likely to be able to get it repaired. I has a couple of class D amps go bad and they just weren't worth the hassle fixing.   

Not IME, provided you have access to a QUALIFIED technician who knows how to CORRECTLY diagnose problems. 

 

In quality amps, failures of the power amp and class D sections are really quite rare. Most failures are related to exactly the same issues faced by older school amps, though overall the newer amps are better designed and built, with better quality parts.

 

When there is a power supply or power amp failure, generally it's less expensive to replace the power module in a class D amp than it is to repair a class AB/G/H amp of similar power rating.  Many older amps are not economically repairable with such failures because the cost of repair exceeds the value of the amp... ie. you can buy a used amp for less than it would cost to repair the bad one.

 

With cheaper amps (say <$300), unless the shop is very good and accurate with diagnosis, it may not be worth repairing regardless of the type of amp. This is the nature of a highly efficient manufacturing environment. This is not an are where I have extensive experience, this mentality is at odds with the companies I have worked for throughout my career.

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Posted (edited)

Although I fall into the trap myself, I should point out that the output devices in amplifiers can all be used in any class of amplifier, so for example linear mosfets can be used in class A, Class B, Class A/B, Class D, Class G and Class H. So can Thermionic Valves and Bipolar Junction Transistors. 

 

However switchng mosfets are are the best option for Class D and Valves/Tubes are not recommended. 

 

I am 70, use class D heads and am quite happy with them.  Yes I was gutted when my beloved Sound City 100W was stolen but the trouble I have had with valve amps over the years, added to the cost of valves, make a valve amp totally uneconomic for me. 

 

 

 

Edited by Chienmortbb
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6 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

With absolutely no sarcasm at all, that’s one of the main factors in my bass purchases.

 

You are either very insecure, very clumsy, or possessed of a tendency to overthink things.

 

😁

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

You are either very insecure, very clumsy, or possessed of a tendency to overthink things.

 

😁

More that I play gigs - or used to - with very clumsy band members. Plus some of those gigs could be a bit boisterous to say the least, so the fewer items that could be permanently broken the better. 
 

Should add, in one of my bands we had to all get wireless kits, not for the posing but that regularly amps would topple where Mr Clumsy1 wouldn’t realise he’d got tangled up in everyone’s leads. I seem to always end up in bands with the clumsiest of fools.

Edited by Lozz196
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11 hours ago, agedhorse said:

 

 

If the voicing and dynamics response of an older school amp or voicing choices appeal more to you, then that's what you should play, and quit disparaging those who don't share your personal preferences and tastes.

 


Quite. And of course, this works both ways.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, agedhorse said:

Actually, how an amp sounds when it's driven hard is not so much the type of power supply and power amp, but the intent of the designer and the choices made in voicing and dynamics of the circuitry. Music has evolved, so have the designs at the same time.

 

If the voicing and dynamics response of an older school amp or voicing choices appeal more to you, then that's what you should play, and quit disparaging those who don't share your personal preferences and tastes.

 

Music has evolved ??????? I agree bass playing has evolved for some but not for all. Some of us actually still like some bass in the signal. You,ve picked my points, rubbished them without any substance what so ever sir. I can pin the vids here but certainly no point in handbag bashing.

I have no idea what heads you have made, you talk about the tech side and your obviously very knowledgeable with the tech but you are ommitting facts too suit your angle.

These heads never came along because the tech was better, they were born out of guys being girls about humping kit about.  These heads started appearing and the companies latched on too a growing trend in the market. 

Companies will always sell their new lines... Does that mean new tech is better ? Often its cheaper too make with higher profit margins. 

I have clearly said class d works for millions of brothers, just not for me. Also stated i,ve only owned 7 of the class d heads on the market. I used class d for time sir. I,m not a hater. Apparently you dont like my opinion as a consumer. 

 

You also know along with the components, a different power supply can and does make a big difference too a few aspects. 

As you know also that its not just the components inside, its how they are designed too work. 

The tests you,ve spoke about previously have no bearing on the ops statement at all. 

Its not an opinion that certain heads use compressions ect too help obtain the higher volumes. Its fact. Tc electronic are very open about that in their rebel heads and have put this info out there. The tc bh500 does not suffer from this like the rh750. Why is that ? Culminates in size of head and components that can be fit inside.

I think the ironic thing is you inadvertently agreed that the non class d stuff does have a difference, as for people too have a preference there needs to be a noticeable difference. 

Surely most class d amp builds work under the constraint of being class d heads?

No ones buying a class d head the size and weight of an svt or a big block mesa. There,s a very big restraint right there.

The components have always been the main factor, in any audio equipment, advancement has seen some parts get smaller but for most parts bigger is better still. My pioneer sx1980 kicks the hell out of modern 20k amps with ease, purely down too the bulkier components within it. Tech is never the end of the convo. And in house company tests always favour the products strengths only. A machine cant hear like a human does. Theres many variables. 

If your seriously telling me you cant tell the difference side by side of how some of these class d amp BEHAVES differently to its bigger brothers as you increase volume then your ears are fried sir and i,m done. 

Again i know guys have sworn by genz benz,ebs heads that i have not used. They are on the too try list.  Infact i have a ebs reidmar750 and rumble 800hd on the way used to try as we speak as I,m actually in need of a small head for my barefaced cabs or its back too the eden metro,s for me. 

Edited by Lowend soldier
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Posted (edited)

I kind-of have a theory that once consumer Class D first came out and was touted as the greatest thing ever, and the manufacturers dropped AB like a stone, it was always going to be difficult / impossible for their marketing departments to admit further down the line that ‘With hindsight, Class AB does deliver an experience a bit more pleasing to some after all…’. 
 

Thankfully, despite what the marketing departments say, class AB ≠ heavy, so it’s no skin off my nose.

Edited by wateroftyne
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18 minutes ago, Lowend soldier said:

Music has evolved ??????? I agree bass playing has evolved for some but not for all. Some of us actually still like some bass in the signal. You,ve picked my points, rubbished them without any substance what so ever sir. I can pin the vids here but certainly no point in handbag bashing.

I have no idea what heads you have made, you talk about the tech side and your obviously very knowledgeable with the tech but you are ommitting facts too suit your angle.

These heads never came along because the tech was better, they were born out of guys being girls about humping kit about.  These heads started appearing and the companies latched on too a growing trend in the market. 

Companies will always sell their new lines... Does that mean new tech is better ? Often its cheaper too make with higher profit margins. 

I have clearly said class d works for millions of brothers, just not for me. Also stated i,ve only owned 7 of the class d heads on the market. I used class d for time sir. I,m not a hater. Apparently you dont like my opinion as a consumer. 

 

You also know along with the components, a different power supply can and does make a big difference too a few aspects. 

As you know also that its not just the components inside, its how they are designed too work. 

The tests you,ve spoke about previously have no bearing on the ops statement at all. 

Its not an opinion that certain heads use compressions ect too help obtain the higher volumes. Its fact. Tc electronic are very open about that in their rebel heads and have put this info out there. The tc bh500 does not suffer from this like the rh750. Why is that ? Culminates in size of head and components that can be fit inside.

I think the ironic thing is you inadvertently agreed that the non class d stuff does have a difference, as for people too have a preference there needs to be a noticeable difference. 

Surely most class d amp builds work under the constraint of being class d heads?

No ones buying a class d head the size and weight of an svt or a big block mesa. There,s a very big restraint right there.

The components have always been the main factor, in any audio equipment, advancement has seen some parts get smaller but for most parts bigger is better still. My pioneer sx1980 kicks the hell out of modern 20k amps with ease, purely down too the bulkier components within it. Tech is never the end of the convo. And in house company tests always favour the products strengths only. A machine cant hear like a human does. Theres many variables. 

If your seriously telling me you cant tell the difference side by side of how a class d amp BEHAVES differently to its bigger brothers as you increase volume then your ears are fried sir and i,m done. 

Again i know guys have sworn by genz benz,ebs heads that i have not used. They are on the too try list.  Infact i have a ebs reidmar750 and rumble 800hd on the way used to try as we speak as I,m actually in need of a small head for my barefaced cabs or its back too the eden metro,s for me. 


Oh dear!

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I have an Orange Little bass Thing and Trace Elliot Elf as a back-up, with a light Super Compact cab. Nice and light and easy on my back. But for today's gig I shall be taking one of my 20 year old ABM combos (or possibly two of them) as they simply sound better, and not just to my ears, but the rest of the band all commented on how good the bass sounded when I dragged one of the heavy combos along to a rehearsal.

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I have 2xTCE BC208s and a Bugera BV1001t, sounds great and can lug em all about no bother! The Bugera fits in one of my gig bag pockets as does the L6 HX Stomp and cabling. So, bass and gear in gig bag on back and can carry both cabs - one in each hand - onto the bus - should I wish or need to - and go to gig. That was the kinda acid test for my latest rig because traffic and travelling in Edinburgh is awful.

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Posted (edited)

 

35 minutes ago, FinnDave said:

I have an Orange Little bass Thing and Trace Elliot Elf as a back-up, with a light Super Compact cab. Nice and light and easy on my back. But for today's gig I shall be taking one of my 20 year old ABM combos (or possibly two of them) as they simply sound better, and not just to my ears, but the rest of the band all commented on how good the bass sounded when I dragged one of the heavy combos along to a rehearsal.

I was in a covers band for about 10 years and probably did 200 plus gigs with them in that time. 

 

For most of that period, my main gigging rig was a Hughes and Kettner Bassbase 600 head, an SWR Triad cab, used with my passive BC Rich Eagle and a passive Fender Roscoe Beck V. 

 

Obviously, that was a heavy enough rig to lug around as it was, but I liked the sound my set up produced and so did the band. 

 

Anyway, after 10 years or so, the band changed direction and I joined another covers band.... It was all amicable, and we kept in touch as you do .. 

 

Then, 4 years later, they got in touch and asked me to help out with a few gigs as their bass player was unavailable. 

 

By this time, though my basses were the same, I'd changed my rig to a brilliant 90s Ampeg V4BH that I'd bought from @Beedster which came with a matching 115 svt. To that, I added the matching 210 svt.

 

I know;  different speaker sizes =  a cardinal sin right! 

 

Anyway, i went along to do these gigs with the band and they were completely blown away with the sound of my heavy, class A/B, all valve, USA built Ampeg rig with its sinfully mismatched speaker sizes. 

 

I was still using the same basses and I wasn't playing the songs any better particularly. .. The only difference was the rig. 

 

Three other things of note in this story...

 

The guitar player in the band co-owned a PA that he hired out and  did front of house sound for, so he had what I'd call 'pretty good ears'. 

 

Their unavailable bass player at the time used a nice American made Fender Jazz through a Markbass LM111 head and 2 matching Markbass 115 cabs. 

 

The new band that I'd joined also loved my Ampeg rig compared to my older rig. 

 

I dont know what makes the difference here - I'm not technical in any way. 

 

But I do think that, as sentient human beings, we 'feel' things as well as 'know' things and, where music making is concerned for me, I choose to follow what i feel, over what I know. 

 

 

Edited by silverfoxnik
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34 minutes ago, FinnDave said:

I have an Orange Little bass Thing and Trace Elliot Elf as a back-up, with a light Super Compact cab. Nice and light and easy on my back. But for today's gig I shall be taking one of my 20 year old ABM combos (or possibly two of them) as they simply sound better, and not just to my ears, but the rest of the band all commented on how good the bass sounded when I dragged one of the heavy combos along to a rehearsal.

Your comment got me thinking of my times sat out front in the crowd and I,m off too start the new BC debate/free for all on how much better a backline of folded horn cabs are better than going through a pa 🤔😉😂😂😂  Hows the classic going sir....

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51 minutes ago, Lowend soldier said:

These heads never came along because the tech was better, they were born out of guys being girls about humping kit about.

 

Even if you're right and lightweight gear didn't come along because the tech was better, I personally reckon gear is better because lightweight tech came along.

 

I want storing and transporting, loading in and out, and setting up and tearing down to be as trivial and literally painless as possible. They just aren't important aspects of the gig as far as I'm concerned, and I can't see how the audience would ever care how difficult I'd made them for myself. They might care if there's less energy and interaction on stage and I look like I don't want to be there because I'm clapped-out or injured before I even play the first note, though. Any improvement in sound that I might gain from using heavier kit is nothing compared to the improvement in performance I can give by not doing.

 

Or to put it another way, my audience isn't there to check out my humping capabilities. Mercifully!

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

Thankfully, despite what the marketing departments say, class AB ≠ heavy, so it’s no skin off my nose.

Class AB heads that use switched-mode power supplies can be small and light too. The Markbass LM2 is an example which although a couple of pounds heavier than the class D LM3 is definitely not old school heavy.

 

Edited by Sparky Mark
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2 hours ago, Lowend soldier said:

These heads never came along because the tech was better, they were born out of guys being girls about humping kit about. 

Hah :lol: I don't have the greatest or least achey back in the world and lightweight kit has been a revelation for me - my days of 100lb cabs and 60lb amps are gone for good - but if you're happy with the casual sexism of calling me a "girl" you carry on. 

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3 minutes ago, Ed_S said:

 

Even if you're right and lightweight gear didn't come along because the tech was better, I personally reckon gear is better because lightweight tech came along.

 

I want storing and transporting, loading in and out, and setting up and tearing down to be as trivial and literally painless as possible. They just aren't important aspects of the gig as far as I'm concerned, and I can't see how the audience would ever care how difficult I'd made them for myself. They might care if there's less energy and interaction on stage and I look like I don't want to be there because I'm clapped-out or injured before I even play the first note, though. Any improvement in sound that I might gain from using heavier kit is nothing compared to the improvement in performance I can give by not doing.

 

Or to put it another way, my audience isn't there to check out my humping capabilities. Mercifully!

Thank you for your ver valid opinion. My needs are not important to you as you say. And I cant question your preference or reasoning in using your set up. Its 100% correct and personal too you. 

Again I'm not claiming anything other than at home when I push the volume on my class d heads. Personally,I feel I lose shape in a way my other heads dont. Fox said it better above. It's a feeling/vibrational thing. Others obviously get that aswell. 

Its certainly not a full on attack of anyone employing a class d head on the battlefield as it's been perceived by many tbf.

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