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Jazzmaster62

Do you have a FOH sound and a Stage sound?

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More of a query than an actual question.

How many bass players gigging use a DI pedal/pre EQ DI to send a signal to the FOH and then use their amp as a separate stage sound? OR do you just send a post EQ DI signal instead? 

Would like to hear your views on this. 

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I think as much as we'd all like our post EQ DI signal to go to FOH in reality it's usually the pre EQ DI that the sound engineer wants.  And for good reason usually because what sounds good in our amp doesn't usually translate well to the FOH system.

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Posted (edited)

I've got an IEM sound and a FOH. Does that count? The IEM mix has lots of multiband comp going on and some added weight in the bass.

Sending my IEM mix to FOH with subwoofers would sound absolutely rubbish... but sending my FOH to my IEMs would sound comparatively thin and lacking.

Edited by EBS_freak

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3 hours ago, CliveT said:

I think as much as we'd all like our post EQ DI signal to go to FOH in reality it's usually the pre EQ DI that the sound engineer wants.  And for good reason usually because what sounds good in our amp doesn't usually translate well to the FOH system.

Which is why I've ditched my traditional bass rig for an RCF745 FRFR.

This and minimal colouration to the sound compared with a bass amp and cab(s). The RCF and the PA both get feeds directly from my Line6 Helix, with the PA at full volume and the RCF via the Helix volume control so I can set my on-stage level without affecting the level I'm sending to the PA. 

Tone-wise both get the same sounds. After all I've fine tuned my sounds to fit in with the rest of the band mix, so that's what I want to hear FoH from the PA - but louder. 

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Posted (edited)

Now that I am using an active bass  through a Darkglass B3K (ran nearly on clean) and Keeley Bassist compressor, I don't mind if the sound engineer wants to use a DI box or take a pre-EQ signal from the amp. My basic sound is already set before it hits the amp. It is basically what I will send directly to the desk when recording so it is fine when going FOH. 

I tried splitting my signal a few times into 'wet' and 'dry' signals but the effort and extra faff was never worth the benefit to me personally. It sounds great when done well but generally when doing soundchecks on a three band bill, I am lucky if I get two minutes to set up a bass sound. 

When using a passive bass running straight into an amp, I am very wary of using a pre EQ signal unless I trust the sound engineer. I have done far too many gigs where the sound engineer has made taken a pre EQ signal and made a complete mess of a passive Fender bass. Of course, if a sound engineer can't EQ a passive Fender bass, there isn't much hope of them handing the vocals, guitars or drums either. It is for this reason I used a Sansamp Bass Driver on 'kinda like an SVT' settings for so many years when gigging with my Precision. It never sounded as great as using a really top end amp (Mesa, Aguilar, Ampeg SVT, EBS etc), but more importantly it was very difficult for the sound engineer to make the signal sound bad!

Edited by thodrik
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For me it differs: In small places like bars etc. I tend to use my amp-cab sound because the FOH usually is'nt really great for bass. They do take my post EQ DI signal form my amp (Fender Bassman 100t) but I usually tell them I would rather have my amp a bit louder and use the FOH for that little extra push. In bigger places I use the (pré EQ) DI signal from my amp, but a lot of my sound comes from my pedal's so that's okay for me. 

In my experience FOH engineers tend to like the DI from the bassman so I've got that going for me...

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I very rarely get FOH these days so I have to carry the room with my gear. I find it's easy to fill the whole room with my current cabs.

If I DI then I'll prefer to use the post option from the amp which bypasses the cabs, so I guess then both sounds will be significantly different.

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I have a Sansamp which I send FOH, which then means i can adjust the amp if my corner of the stage requires excessive eq'ing, and the engineer is usually happy as they normally recognise a Sansamp and like it. In my experience, they usually would only want a pre eq di if the bass player is adding excessive bass etc from an active bass/ preamp. 

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Like BigRedX, I've sculpted a sound from a pedal board that I want to be heard. The stage rig is usually 1 Fearless F112 into the power section of an amp. I've had compliments from both stage and PA tone so I know it works well for both. Sound men are pleased because it's very little work on their side as I even use my own DI.

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On 15/04/2019 at 15:23, BigRedX said:

Which is why I've ditched my traditional bass rig for an RCF745 FRFR.

This and minimal colouration to the sound compared with a bass amp and cab(s). The RCF and the PA both get feeds directly from my Line6 Helix, with the PA at full volume and the RCF via the Helix volume control so I can set my on-stage level without affecting the level I'm sending to the PA. 

Tone-wise both get the same sounds. After all I've fine tuned my sounds to fit in with the rest of the band mix, so that's what I want to hear FoH from the PA - but louder. 

I run pretty much this setup too with the Helix going in to a BF FR800.  The only difference in mine is that I add a cab IR to the signal going to the FRFR.  I leave that off the FOH feed as that effectively mirrors a post EQ DI from the amp head.  The great thing with the Helix is that you're not restricted to the traditional pre/post DI options. 

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TBH - never gave a flying fish about FOH sound. They were given a DI out of an amp and that was that. (I stopped gigging years' ago).

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depends on the size of the gig and what i can bring with me but they always get a coloured tone.

 

If i'm using my big rig (SVT into a Barefaced 610) and it needs to go through the PA.  I have one of those ampclamp wt pro, mic holders that slots onto the side of the amp. I bring an Audix D4 mic and just pop it on myself.  I always ask the sound guy if its ok and usually there fine with it.

 

If i bring the little rig (TC Electronic BQ500 into a Barefaced Supercompact), i use a vt bass preamp set to sound like my big rig and give them a DI pre EQ off the amp head.

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On 17/04/2019 at 11:07, zranyard said:

I have a Sansamp which I send FOH, which then means i can adjust the amp if my corner of the stage requires excessive eq'ing, and the engineer is usually happy as they normally recognise a Sansamp and like it. In my experience, they usually would only want a pre eq di if the bass player is adding excessive bass etc from an active bass/ preamp. 

Pretty much the same for me, though my preamp is the Sansamp Para Driver. My on-stage sound I can then adjust when/if needed without interfering with FOH which seems to be a factor that sound-people like greatly.

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On 15/04/2019 at 11:15, Jazzmaster62 said:

More of a query than an actual question.

How many bass players gigging use a DI pedal/pre EQ DI to send a signal to the FOH and then use their amp as a separate stage sound? OR do you just send a post EQ DI signal instead? 

Would like to hear your views on this. 

 

Most places I play I go DI (pre) and the amplifier onstage is just to be my monitor. In one of the bands I use a few pedals, so the sound is generated before it reaches the DI. I include a cab simulator, for DI, so that my overdriven bass sounds ok and not fizzy.

When I play bars and my amplifier is what carries the bass for the whole place, then there's just one sound, obviously. And earplugs.

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Small gigs: effects Boss GT10-B in to amp Ashdown RM 500 input, no bass through PA. 

Big gigs: We have been taking the DI from the amp head but I'm now tempted to take the DI from the Boss just to see if it gives a better translation of the amp and can Sims from the Boss. Now I've got a wireless kit I can go and check it out in soundchecks. I trust what I was getting before, but now I can actually go and hear it for myself.

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Foh get a post Di sound wherever I am. 

Ive spent a lot of time finding and tweaking my sound for the band mix. 

The foh is there to make the stage sound louder. 

Some small tweaks may be required for tuning to the room, but the core sound will be the same. 

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As a former FOH engineer, I would say this:

I used to always initially push to go pre-EQ as you never knew what silly things bass players would do mid gig to hear themselves on stage which might cause problems with resonance or mush out front..  However, if a bass player made a fuss about a "unique sound" or wanted post EQ, I would usually understand and go that way.  A lot of bass players didn't have a clue what I was talking about or would say "it's up to you".

In my experience (and only my experience) 90% of bass players are in a certain tonal range that you can hear and easily recreate FOH.  I used to mainly use EQ to suit the room and never really used it to override a players tone and boost or cut a sound to try and change it.  The perceived sound is often made more by the mix of the overall band along with room resonances etc, not because some devillish sound control freak is purposely changing your tone.

Of course there are some hopeless sound engineers that will leave a compressor across your channel and not hear it has totally taken all the bite out of it, or not hear the signal is clipping, or the line has gone one-legged.  Those guys just can't be helped.  A bit like the bass players that turn up with home made pedals that output DC V to your hired backline, or don't understand the laws of headroom on a signal.....

 

 

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Thanks for all the thoughts guys.

I've always gone pre EQ and let the sound guy do his thing. I very rarely use effects (actually never) except a touch of grit from an OD. 

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51 minutes ago, Jazzmaster62 said:

Thanks for all the thoughts guys.

I've always gone pre EQ and let the sound guy do his thing. I very rarely use effects (actually never) except a touch of grit from an OD. 

I think that's an important difference. If you use a lot of effects they tend to 'interact' with the sound of your amp. I know from experience that when I play on a different amp I'm turning knobs for 20 minutes on my effect board, because it just doesn't sound right, and you kind of get the same thing with pre EQ FOH sound imho. I think a clean sound from a nice sounding bass comes through nicely (if the FOH engineer knows what he's doing at least...), but with a lot of effects the case might be different. 

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On 04/05/2019 at 10:35, Kamiel said:

I think that's an important difference. If you use a lot of effects they tend to 'interact' with the sound of your amp. I know from experience that when I play on a different amp I'm turning knobs for 20 minutes on my effect board, because it just doesn't sound right, and you kind of get the same thing with pre EQ FOH sound imho. I think a clean sound from a nice sounding bass comes through nicely (if the FOH engineer knows what he's doing at least...), but with a lot of effects the case might be different. 

Which is why IMO it is best to eliminate the reliance of your sound on what your amp and cab(s) are doing.

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14 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Which is why IMO it is best to eliminate the reliance of your sound on what your amp and cab(s) are doing.

That is ofcourse a way to counter that problem :)

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On 15/04/2019 at 10:23, BigRedX said:

Which is why I've ditched my traditional bass rig for an RCF745 FRFR.

This and minimal colouration to the sound compared with a bass amp and cab(s). The RCF and the PA both get feeds directly from my Line6 Helix, with the PA at full volume and the RCF via the Helix volume control so I can set my on-stage level without affecting the level I'm sending to the PA. 

Tone-wise both get the same sounds. After all I've fine tuned my sounds to fit in with the rest of the band mix, so that's what I want to hear FoH from the PA - but louder. 

Same for me. I do exactly this, but different modeler(s) and usually via Atomic CLR cabinets (12" coaxial).

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I've ditched all backline now - i still have all my cabs, amps, effects etc etc but they never get used anymore.  Bass to wireless to digital mixer to FOH - job done.  My IEMs take care of monitoring and, like Russ has mentioned above, I have two completely different sounds for IEM and FOH (I should add we always use our own PA) and use the compressor (single or multi-band depending on which mix), para EQ and the sansamp plugin on my channel from the XR18 - it all sounds great to me and is really consistent.  I've spent the past two years convincing the band to ditch the 4x12s and the acoustic kit and replace with smaller cabs, amps and a really nice e-kit - all through the PA - the band now sounds so much better out front and the monitoring is now able to do its job - i would find it a right pain going back to a loud backline in a band now - most sound rubbish in the pubs we play at.

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