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Punters Don't Know The Difference

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[quote name='blue' timestamp='1499933240' post='3334542']
It's a "I didn't think we were very good. As a matter of fact I don't think we she be playing those kind of gigs"

Blue
[/quote]

Sorry Blue, I was asking why you said "I don't think we should be playing those types if gigs" [size=1](sic)[/size].

It must be way past your bedtime. Catch you later when you've had some beauty sleep.

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[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1499937839' post='3334603']
mistakes can be part of the show, if you handle it right the crowd find it amusing, once in a while anyway
[/quote]

I'm with you on that one. It is no bad thing to let the audience know that you are only human just like them, as you say, "once in a while".

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[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1499940557' post='3334644']
Its not for another thread. Punters DO notice the difference, thats why I always want my band "On". A Pub band can and should be just as professional in attitude to practice and rehearsal as a pro band. That was my point, punters do notice if a band is having a great time rather than simply playing the right notes in the right places. Its about a professional performance/show, rather than just being a good musician.
[/quote]

I see your point but i've found that the reality for many amatuer bands is that they simply don't have the same amount of time available to rehearse either at home after work or rehearsing with their band.
One of the main differences i see is that a "professional" musician spends his days learning his material and has less distraction in life.
If i was spending my days learning songs and perfecting my performance in general i would expect to be up there hitting all the right notes and interacting with my audience to ensure they have the best night of their lives. Sadly i don't have that time available but still strive to do the best i can.
I learn from each gig to perfect for the next gig. I learned a fair bit from Blue's other post on "Stage Presence" that i need tp perfect so i'm learning all the time.
Every day a school day. :)
With regards putting on a professional show i agree with you and all bands should be aiming for a high standard.

Dave

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[quote name='blue' timestamp='1499886624' post='3334357']
My point, none of us should use this
"punters can't tell the difference" as an excuse for "shoddy" performances.

Blue
[/quote]

I don't think we do. At least, I would hope none of us do! I would say it's more a way of reassuring ourselves that, even if we did drop a few bum notes in one or two songs, or one song felt a little lacklustre, it didn't derail the set and the audience enjoyed it. For a single, individual gig, they are the bottom line, and a good audience response can make the difference when it comes to being booked again - judge, jury and executioner all in one, if you will - so if we dropped a few clangers, "but the punters didn't notice," then we probably don't need to beat ourselves up too much about any imperfections.

...which is different from "what's the point in practising/rehearsing? The punters don't know the difference." That, on the other hand, would be arrogant and bone-idle, and I think most groups would come unstuck if they tried to gig with that attitude.

So I don't disagree with you, [i]per se[/i], but I would argue that it's maybe a little more nuanced than some of our day-to-day conversations on here might suggest!

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[quote name='blue' timestamp='1499886624' post='3334357']
We will often see comments here on bass chat pushing the idea that punters don't notice the flaws in our shows.

I recently saw 2 pro level shows, Ann Wilson from Heart & Peter Frampton. Both shows were outstanding. Production and the caliber of musicianship was outstanding.

Do you think they got to that level of performance with a "punters can't tell the difference" attitude?

[b]My point, none of us should use this
"punters can't tell the difference" as an excuse for "shoddy" performances.[/b]

Blue
[/quote]

You are telling me my post about punters being able to tell the difference is for another thread? A shoddy performance can also be leveled at a band simply going through the motions, rather than putting on an exciting show. Because punters "[b]Can[/b] tell the difference".

Edited by mikel

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What are these "mistakes" of which you speak?

Just play it that way twice. Then it's deliberate.

Or blame the drummer.

Whatever.

[URL=http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/h4ppyjack/media/Just%20Stuff/Music%20and%20Musicians/post-25599-0-34843200-1381005057_th_zpsc004aaac.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/h4ppyjack/Just%20Stuff/Music%20and%20Musicians/post-25599-0-34843200-1381005057_th_zpsc004aaac.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

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My reading of what Blue is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't about whether the audience notice the mistakes/poor performances/bad arrangements/etc but rather whether it's OK to not worry about it and not want to improve [b]because[/b] the punters didn't/won't notice. And they don't - I have stories - but that's not the point. It's about "the punters won't notice so we won't try" rather than "the punters didn't notice so we got away with that one" right?

As the one person in every band who walks off stage remembering every single mistake made I've had to have the difference drummed into me - always practice hard and get as good as you can be, but don't lose sleep over a fluffed note when it's too late to play it correctly.

Personally I hate the "nobody notices how good we are so we shouldn't try" attitude, and I've just joined a new covers band being put together by a couple of semi-pros from an originals band on the basis of "we're much better than the pub covers bands I've seen so let's go out and show people how it should be done". Arrogant? Certainly. But really appealing to have such a ""let's be excellent" attitude.

But I do find the "punter's won't notice so lets not try" is often a justification from people at a certain level, and from personal experience it's in a lot of lead guitarists at the pub covers band level, not worrying about whether they can get note perfect for all of that really well known solo because the crowd always clap when the band plays that song so he must be alright. Possibly a bit Dunning Kruger - they think they're a great guitarist, everybody tells them they're great, so they don't need to bother getting any better. And it's why they never progress beyond pub cover bands - it's very self limiting to be known as "fine for a pub band". But it may well be the limits of their talent, so that's OK.

Whereas the much better semi-pros and pros I've played with are far more critical of their own performances (and their bandmates' performances) and will practice technique for hours so that they don't have to practice bits from songs for hours to get them right.

Which isn't to say that lesser musicians don't practice just as hard or have the right attitude, and talent will ultimately limit the level that people get to, but I do agree with Blue that those at the top typically have the talent [b]and [/b]the hard work/right attitude.

Edited by Monkey Steve

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I've encountered very few players who have a 'this will do' attitude. Maybe I've just been lucky, but aside from individual cases of blowing it through booze (and being really sorry about it afterwards) or the occasional strop throwing (singer obviously), every band I've been in has at least gone on stage wanting to nail every song. Where I have noticed a difference is when things start to derail (bad sound, faulty equipment, unresponsive audience, whatever) and some players not being prepared to punch through the fog to get it back on track. It's easy to nail things when it's all going swimmingly, but being prepared to really work yourself out of a hole, for possibly limited reward, when it's all going wrong is another thing entirely. I've seen bands at quite a high level act like spoiled children at the first sign of trouble and old pros just wade through it. The 'this audience doesn't deserve us' approach. Or giving the few people who did show up a poor show when they were the ones who [i]did [/i]turn out on a wet Tuesday.

Edited by radiophonic

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My take on this is we all have different levels of talent available to us in our bands.

Music is an art form, we are creating art, not a piece of engineering that either works or doesn't.

Putting on a performance works on a law of diminishing returns. There comes a point where you're not going to give a significantly better performance with the amount of time and talent available to you. At this point you have to ceed that it's 'good enough' and 'the punters won't notice any difference" if you spent another rehearsal trying to polish what you have.

That level is going to be different for every band.

It's not an admission of failure, or laziness, it's just being realistic. It has nothing to do with striving to be your best, you may be performing at the limits of the bands ability.

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Regards professionals having more time to practice, most of the professionals I know don't practice in the same way as hobby players.

Once you have achieved a certain amount of experience, playing and learning new material is extremely simple.

I have a dep job with a band in 4 weeks where I have to play 35 tunes that I've never played before. I haven't practiced one of them yet let alone met the rest of the band.

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[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1499946813' post='3334708']
...
[url="http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/h4ppyjack/media/Just%20Stuff/Music%20and%20Musicians/post-25599-0-34843200-1381005057_th_zpsc004aaac.jpg.html"][/url]
[/quote]

Hahahahaha.

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[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1499950509' post='3334755']
My reading of what Blue is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't about whether the audience notice the mistakes/poor performances/bad arrangements/etc but rather whether it's OK to not worry about it and not want to improve [b]because[/b] the punters didn't/won't notice. And they don't - I have stories - but that's not the point. It's about "the punters won't notice so we won't try" rather than "the punters didn't notice so we got away with that one" right? [/quote]

Correct

Your a breath of fresh air Steve.

Blue

Edited by blue

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if i thought making do was enough then i wouldnt do it at all. but i'm not bereft of mistakes but as you say thats not the point of this one. we had a gig at a wedding at the weekend, hot sweaty venue we gave it our all and the audience reciprocated. and i hope it comes across at every gig we do. yeah some bum notes but great reaction from all at the end, job done.

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[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1499941863' post='3334658']
I wasn't aware of people saying that the crowd won't notice incompetence.

I do think they don't notice a lot - but incompetence usually stands out to most people.
[/quote]

Exactly my thoughts.

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[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1499945063' post='3334693']
I see your point but i've found that the reality for many amatuer bands is that they simply don't have the same amount of time available to rehearse either at home after work or rehearsing with their band.
One of the main differences i see is that a "professional" musician spends his days learning his material and has less distraction in life.
If i was spending my days learning songs and perfecting my performance in general i would expect to be up there hitting all the right notes and interacting with my audience to ensure they have the best night of their lives. Sadly i don't have that time available but still strive to do the best i can.
I learn from each gig to perfect for the next gig. I learned a fair bit from Blue's other post on "Stage Presence" that i need tp perfect so i'm learning all the time.
Every day a school day. :)
With regards putting on a professional show i agree with you and all bands should be aiming for a high standard.

Dave
[/quote]

Exactly what I was saying. We are not all pro musicians but we can still have a professional attitude to playing, be it down the local pub or at a stadium gig. You give your best, If your best is only pretty good, but entertaining, then you have not taken the attitude that "The punters wont notice". Why do some find it difficult to grasp what I am saying?

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I think the thing of "The Punters Don`t Know The Difference" comes from when you hear covers bands play songs wrong, as in, the wrong chords/notes. Providing the whole band is doing the same, most pub-goers watching a covers band won`t notice as it`s the singer they concentrate on. I used to watch a local band who played Gangsters by The Specials and they were right on the first note, wrong on the next, yet all the audience were up & dancing. Same with their version of Going Underground by The Jam, the bassist didn`t play hardly any of the bass riffs/runs, which to me are an essential part of that song, yet again, audience cheering, singing along & dancing. Why, imo cos the singer was good, and in the right key, with the vocals being plenty loud.

Now go to fans of originals bands, and you soon hear people saying "so and so was a bit off on the guitar solos this eve" "they didn`t start with the drums like on the album" "they only did one chorus at the end instead of two". Different world, and that`s why the pro-bands have to put the hours in, to always play as if it`s the bigest gig they`ve ever done, and not just put a shift in - they`ll get found out otherwise.

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[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1499962090' post='3334869']
Regards professionals having more time to practice, most of the professionals I know don't practice in the same way as hobby players.

Once you have achieved a certain amount of experience, playing and learning new material is extremely simple.

I have a dep job with a band in 4 weeks where I have to play 35 tunes that I've never played before. I haven't practiced one of them yet let alone met the rest of the band.
[/quote]


How did you get to that level of experience tho. ?
Surely you must have put a lot of hrs in to practicing at home or you have played a lot of gigs over the years.

At some point in a professionals playing career they must have put the hours in to achieve the level of experience that you mention.

Altho i personally have never quite reached that level i can see how it would be a lot simpler to learn new material at short notice.

Is it not the case that they have reached that point either by playing and gigging more hrs than the average Joe who is working a full time job elsewhere.
I guess that is where their commitment has taken them to a higher level of experience than many amatuer musicians.

There will always be the exceptions to the rule but i'm talking more a general point of view rather than every individual.

Dave

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[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1499968654' post='3334912']
I think the thing of "The Punters Don`t Know The Difference" comes from when you hear covers bands play songs wrong, as in, the wrong chords/notes. Providing the whole band is doing the same, most pub-goers watching a covers band won`t notice as it`s the singer they concentrate on. I used to watch a local band who played Gangsters by The Specials and they were right on the first note, wrong on the next, yet all the audience were up & dancing. Same with their version of Going Underground by The Jam, the bassist didn`t play hardly any of the bass riffs/runs, which to me are an essential part of that song, yet again, audience cheering, singing along & dancing. Why, imo cos the singer was good, and in the right key, with the vocals being plenty loud.

Now go to fans of originals bands, and you soon hear people saying "so and so was a bit off on the guitar solos this eve" "they didn`t start with the drums like on the album" "they only did one chorus at the end instead of two". Different world, and that`s why the pro-bands have to put the hours in, to always play as if it`s the bigest gig they`ve ever done, and not just put a shift in - they`ll get found out otherwise.
[/quote]
I have come across the 'it wasn't like that on.....' types and I have to say I don't like it when I see a band and they play exactly the same as the album version. Why bother? I may as well sit in comfort with a beer. I LOVE the variation that live music allows and that's why the bands that improvise and experiment stand out.

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[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1499968500' post='3334910']
Exactly what I was saying. We are not all pro musicians but we can still have a professional attitude to playing, be it down the local pub or at a stadium gig. You give your best, If your best is only pretty good, but entertaining, then you have not taken the attitude that "The punters wont notice". Why do some find it difficult to grasp what I am saying?
[/quote]

Pardon?










Heeheehee

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In the past on here there have been a lot of posts from musicians who agonise over every tiny mistake that they or their band mates make at gigs. What I (and a lot of others are saying) is that while it ought to be one of our goals to strive to reach the point where we don't make mistakes, it is far more important that you learn to play through them, don't pull a face if you make one yourself and not to pointedly look at your band mate who has. A mistake at a gig is gone in a second and since none of us can travel back in time to correct it, don't worry and concentrate on putting on a good show.

For me there will always be at least one song in the set that is close to the limit of my technical ability. Sometimes I'll make it all the way through without error and sometimes I won't. My aim is to make sure that every time I play that song at a gig I am less likely to get it wrong. At some point I'll be able to play it perfectly almost every time, by which time there will probably be another harder song in the set. I have the same attitude to the others in my band making mistakes. Play through it, don't telegraph it to the audience and work on your playing so at the next gig you are less likely to make the same mistake.

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[quote name='T-Bay' timestamp='1499970162' post='3334927']
I have come across the 'it wasn't like that on.....' types and I have to say I don't like it when I see a band and they play exactly the same as the album version. Why bother? I may as well sit in comfort with a beer. I LOVE the variation that live music allows and that's why the bands that improvise and experiment stand out.
[/quote]

Yep, I`m in big agreement re having live arrangements for songs, some songs just work better in a slightly different format live as oppose to recorded. It takes a quality band imo to recognise that. But the thing is, those types who would notice a pro band missing a double chorus for example are quite possibly the same people who won`t notice that a pub covers band are playing, say A then Eb on a song that should have gone A then Ab.

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[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1499969521' post='3334920']



How did you get to that level of experience tho. ?
Surely you must have put a lot of hrs in to practicing at home or you have played a lot of gigs over the years.

At some point in a professionals playing career they must have put the hours in to achieve the level of experience that you mention.

Altho i personally have never quite reached that level i can see how it would be a lot simpler to learn new material at short notice.

Is it not the case that they have reached that point either by playing and gigging more hrs than the average Joe who is working a full time job elsewhere.
I guess that is where their commitment has taken them to a higher level of experience than many amatuer musicians.

There will always be the exceptions to the rule but i'm talking more a general point of view rather than every individual.

Dave
[/quote]

How do they get to that level? Attitude, hard work,conviction, disipline, gifted, and smarts are probably all a part of it.

I also think playing with like minded people and playing with musicians that challenge you helps.

It will be tough for young guys in bands with guys that have the ability but are just plain lazy. I'm sure a few of you have been through that. Very frustrating.

Blue

Edited by blue

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[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1499980991' post='3335010']


I'm not particularly bothered about shifting T-shirts and CD's as I'm not in it for the money.[/quote]

I'm sitting here looking at my gig schedule and I'm figuring out which bills will be paid and when.

Seriously, am I the only bass chatter that us in this for the money. And why does it seem like not being in it for the money is some sort of badge of honor?

Blue

Edited by blue

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[quote name='blue' timestamp='1499988802' post='3335044']...
Seriously, am I the only bass chatter that us in this for the money. And why does it seem like not being in it for the money is some sort of badge of honor?...
[/quote]

That's [i]your [/i]perception, not ours, so ask the question of [i]yourself[/i], not us.

Edited by Dad3353

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