blue Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='Yank' timestamp='1499935804' post='3334574'] Through the years, I've noticed that some musicians seem to stagnate at the level that they're good enough to get a gig, but don't put in the effort to improve beyond that. They've reached their personal pinnacle. Others will always strive to improve. [/quote] Agreed Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='Japhet' timestamp='1499935450' post='3334566'] 2 gigs I went to see many years ago stand out for me on this subject. First one: Buddy Guy. He made loads of mistakes but put on such an entertaining show. Lots of banter with the audience and put everything into being entertaining. Second one; Robert Cray Band. Faultless but soulless performance which left feeling like I could have simply listened to the CD. I'm OK with mistakes. [/quote] Mistakes would be a topic for another thread. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1499935039' post='3334559'] Oh yeah, I've heard about this stuff. However, I'm not clear on what Nancy's point is?... [/quote] His 'point', I think I'm right in expanding, is that some acts (DT being just one example...) have many followers who are very appreciative of their heroes, but equally very critical in their expectations. Other shows are more 'background music', in which the general 'ambience' is more important than the technical exactitude, as few, if any, are listening so intently to the band. That's not to say that the bands in question should play to a low(er...) standard, simply that the attention is different. You did this yourself, I believe, when watching the Frampton show; you were (unconsciously..?) listening out for errors, where your own audience were just dancing to your blues beat. I hope I've not betrayed his intentions here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 (edited) [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1499936224' post='3334584'] His 'point', I think I'm right in expanding, is that some acts (DT being just one example...) have many followers who are very appreciative of their heroes, but equally very critical in their expectations. Other shows are more 'background music', in which the general 'ambience' is more important than the technical exactitude, as few, if any, are listening so intently to the band. That's not to say that the bands in question should play to a low(er...) standard, simply that the attention is different. You did this yourself, I believe, when watching the Frampton show; you were (unconsciously..?) listening out for errors, where your own audience were just dancing to your blues beat. I hope I've not betrayed his intentions here. [/quote] I referenced what IMO was a flawless performance. But that's not what the thread is about or my point. Blue Edited July 13, 2017 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1499936575' post='3334586'] I referenced what IMO was a flawless performance. But that's not what the thread is about or my point... [/quote] Possibly, but topics evolve and spread out into other subjects. It's difficult (and often counter-productive...) to try limiting posts to just the one question or opinion. That's the way of forums in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 mistakes can be part of the show, if you handle it right the crowd find it amusing, once in a while anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 I would think that Ann Wilson and Peter Frampton as an example have reached that point in their career because they put the effort in. They've obviously taken on board any criticism from early years and worked to improve what they percieved as flaws or failings in the performance. I would hope that i strive to do the same altho don't see me reaching their level as its more a hobby for me and its not a career for me. That being said i want to put on the best show or performance i can as a band. I would expect "professional musicians" to have put more time into their material and performance and therefore expect a higher level of show than the guy who has to work 40hr week and hopefully get an hour or two at night to learn material for his pub gig. You have to draw a balance between what your full time job is and what you can realistically achieve as an amatuer. A good positive attitude to the performance and a high level of confidence is a huge help no matter what level you are at. Its a bit like comparing a repair tech who does it for a living and a guy that does the odd repair in his spare time. I would expect the full time repair guy to know his job better and offer a better service level. That is a general observation and there will lalways be the exception to the rule. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1499937447' post='3334597'] Possibly, but topics evolve and spread out into other subjects. It's difficult (and often counter-productive...) to try limiting posts to just the one question or opinion. That's the way of forums in general. [/quote] Don't get me wrong. I welcome a debate anytime if someone has a different opinion or disagrees with my point. I really do. However, I thought I made my point perfectly clear. Again, I think my thread title was not the best choice of words. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1499937884' post='3334604'] I would think that Ann Wilson and Peter Frampton as an example have reached that point in their career because they put the effort in. They've obviously taken on board any criticism from early years and worked to improve what they percieved as flaws or failings in the performance. I would hope that i strive to do the same altho don't see me reaching their level as its more a hobby for me and its not a career for me. That being said i want to put on the best show or performance i can as a band. I would expect "professional musicians" to have put more time into their material and performance and therefore expect a higher level of show than the guy who has to work 40hr week and hopefully get an hour or two at night to learn material for his pub gig. You have to draw a balance between what your full time job is and what you can realistically achieve as an amatuer. A good positive attitude to the performance and a high level of confidence is a huge help no matter what level you are at. Its a bit like comparing a repair tech who does it for a living and a guy that does the odd repair in his spare time. I would expect the full time repair guy to know his job better and offer a better service level. That is a general observation and there will lalways be the exception to the rule. Dave [/quote] Agreed, Thank You Dave. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBass Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 (edited) [quote name='blue' timestamp='1499900895' post='3334465'] You make a good point Paul. However, I think young serious rock musicians usually start out playing clubs and bars. I'm not sure it's a good idea to set your standard by what punters accept. I wish I was a young musician, however I'm hurtling through my late 40s as I write My point here is don't set your standards by the low standards of a pub crowd. Blue [/quote] We certainly don't Blue. We practise hard and aim to play the best set we can, to the best of our abilities. The inevitable minor mistake however isn't something I lose any sleep over. I wish I was still a young musician, however I'm hurtling through my late 40s as I write I saw a very highly rated bass player in one of the biggest rock bands in the world totally screw up the intro to one of their biggest hits when I saw tbem live a few years ago. He shrugged, smiled, and just started again. The audience loved it. Edited July 13, 2017 by PaulGibsonBass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1499936224' post='3334584'] His 'point', I think I'm right in expanding, is that some acts (DT being just one example...) have many followers who are very appreciative of their heroes, but equally very critical in their expectations. Other shows are more 'background music', in which the general 'ambience' is more important than the technical exactitude, as few, if any, are listening so intently to the band. That's not to say that the bands in question should play to a low(er...) standard, simply that the attention is different. You did this yourself, I believe, when watching the Frampton show; you were (unconsciously..?) listening out for errors, where your own audience were just dancing to your blues beat. I hope I've not betrayed his intentions here. [/quote] Nope, my friend, you're spot on. Sometimes use of a metaphor ([i]Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra[/i]) can speak volumes, but if you don't know who/what Dream Theater is, then the metaphor kind of falls flat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='PaulGibsonBass' timestamp='1499939088' post='3334620'] We certainly don't Blue. We practise hard and aim to play the best set we can, to the best of our abilities. The inevitable minor mistake however isn't something I lose any sleep over. I wish I was still a young musician, however I'm hurtling through my late 40s as I write I saw a very highly rated bass player in one of the biggest rock bands in the world totally screw up the intro to one of their biggest hits when I saw tbem live a few years ago. He shrugged, smiled, and just started again. The audience loved it. [/quote] I get where your coming from Dave, but I'm not going to get into a discussion about mistakes. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikel Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 I have never felt that way. I know when the band I am in is "On" or not, and that is what gives me satisfaction playing music for others. And that has nothing to do with bum notes or missed cue's, thats another ball game that should be sorted at rehearsals. Giving your best at every gig should be a given, or why are you bothering to practice and rehearse? I have been to many big gigs in the last few years where I have left with a sense of mild disappointment. Yes the musicianship, sound and production have been very professional and slick, but there were vital ingredients missing....excitement and passion. I would rather see a semi pro band in a pub giving it large, and looking like they mean it, than a big name act being very polished and professional, but clinical and lacking passion. Its rock and roll, its supposed to move me, excite me, surprise me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='mikel' timestamp='1499939687' post='3334630'] I have been to many big gigs in the last few years where I have left with a sense of mild disappointment. Yes the musicianship, sound and production have been very professional and slick, but there were vital ingredients missing....excitement and passion. I would rather see a semi pro band in a pub giving it large, and looking like they mean it, than a big name act being very polished and professional, but clinical and lacking passion. Its rock and roll, its supposed to move me, excite me, surprise me. [/quote] Another good topic for another thread. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBass Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1499939564' post='3334627'] I get where your coming from Dave, but I'm not going to get into a discussion about mistakes. Blue [/quote] Fair enough. In that case I won't mention you mistaking my name 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBass Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='mikel' timestamp='1499939687' post='3334630'] I would rather see a semi pro band in a pub giving it large, and looking like they mean it, than a big name act being very polished and professional, but clinical and lacking passion. Its rock and roll, its supposed to move me, excite me, surprise me. [/quote] Totally this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 (edited) [quote name='PaulGibsonBass' timestamp='1499940014' post='3334636'] Fair enough. In that case I won't mention you mistaking my name �� [/quote] I wouldn't worry, 'PaulFenderBass' - He thought he was talking to 'Trigger'. Edited July 13, 2017 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikel Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1499939954' post='3334634'] Another good topic for another thread. Blue [/quote] Its not for another thread. Punters DO notice the difference, thats why I always want my band "On". A Pub band can and should be just as professional in attitude to practice and rehearsal as a pro band. That was my point, punters do notice if a band is having a great time rather than simply playing the right notes in the right places. Its about a professional performance/show, rather than just being a good musician. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='mikel' timestamp='1499940557' post='3334644'] Its not for another thread. Punters DO notice the difference, thats why I always want my band "On". A Pub band can and should be just as professional in attitude to practice and rehearsal as a pro band. That was my point, punters do notice if a band is having a great time rather than simply playing the right notes in the right places. Its about a professional performance/show, rather than just being a good musician. [/quote] What Punters Notice At Gigs is a good topic, but has absolutely nothing to do with my thread IMO. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1499937839' post='3334603'] mistakes can be part of the show, if you handle it right the crowd find it amusing, once in a while anyway [/quote] Tommy Cooper proved this, years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earbrass Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]What Punters Notice At Gigs, [/font][/color]Punters Don't Know The Difference nope, can't see any connection there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1499939410' post='3334625']... ([i]Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra[/i]) ... [/quote] I must be one of the lucky ones with a Google that actually works..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 I wasn't aware of people saying that the crowd won't notice incompetence. I do think they don't notice a lot - but incompetence usually stands out to most people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 been said before but worth saying again, the crowd will know a good band from a bad one but won't know the reasons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 [quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1499924176' post='3334491'] I'm not sure I understand the view that the only people that will notice are probably musicians anyway, so it doesn't matter. Surely they are the people we aim to impress, aren't they? [/quote] IMO other musicians are almost the last people I want to impress. They are a tiny part of the average audience an entertaining band should be able to pull in. I want to impress "ordinary people" who might want to buy a CD/Record/T-shirt at the end of the evening if the band was sufficiently entertaining. Also IME punters and most musicians will only notice mistakes if the band make a big deal about them. If you play through any minor or even major errors as if they had never happened, no-one except the most die-hard of your fans will ever notice. That is what makes a band professional to ability to play together as though any mistakes never happened, not to never make any mistakes. [quote name='blue' timestamp='1499941046' post='3334649'] What Punters Notice At Gigs is a good topic, but has absolutely nothing to do with my thread IMO. Blue [/quote] IMO they are one and the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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