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KevB

End of cash in hand for gigs?

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[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1499853733' post='3334034']
Playing devils advocate, if all the small time tax dodgers were added up it would probably be far bigger tax loss than what the likes of Starbucks and Amazon cost the exchequer, you're talking billions of pounds, that's why the Government hates cash, but it'll be a long time before people start paying the window cleaner in anything other than cash. Slightly different point, some pubs want to pay in cash because it costs them to bank money (not as much as paying by card costs them though), they like to get rid of it, hence cashback
[/quote]

Indeed. The report this morning suggested that this 'gig economy' is worth in the region of £6 billion a year. I'm not sure if that was 6 billion total turnover or a potential £6 billion in lost taxes. Makes you think either way.

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Don't see what all the fuss is about. Despite the Protestations (LOL) there is a magic money tree of around £1billion when it suits.....

Edited by yorks5stringer

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[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1499866695' post='3334157']
Indeed. The report this morning suggested that this 'gig economy' is worth in the region of £6 billion a year. I'm not sure if that was 6 billion total turnover or a potential £6 billion in lost taxes. Makes you think either way.
[/quote]

Lost tax revenue was how I understood it

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[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1499867795' post='3334169']


Lost tax revenue was how I understood it
[/quote]

Still a drop in the ocean when compared to what G4S, Amazon and google etc don't pay.

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[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1499868067' post='3334173']
Still a drop in the ocean when compared to what G4S, Amazon and google etc don't pay.
[/quote]

Yes, 6bn is only about 0.8% of UK public revenue (income, NI, VAT, corporation, etc)

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[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1499868067' post='3334173']
Still a drop in the ocean when compared to what G4S, Amazon and google etc don't pay.
[/quote]

Maybe, but that's looking over one's shoulder; there's principles involved, whoever the 'other crooks' are. On the other hand, it certainly makes [i]our [/i]option of not playing for payment much easier on the conscience, anyway..! TheTaxman is welcome to his share of nowt..! :lol:

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[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1499868067' post='3334173']


Still a drop in the ocean when compared to what G4S, Amazon and google etc [b]didn't[/b] pay.
[/quote]

FIFY. It's now being paid as the loopholes have been closed.

Edited by TimR

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[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1499868519' post='3334177']


Maybe, but that's looking over one's shoulder; there's principles involved, whoever the 'other crooks' are. On the other hand, it certainly makes [i]our [/i]option of not playing for payment much easier on the conscience, anyway..! TheTaxman is welcome to his share of nowt..! :lol:
[/quote]
If it went zero cash Doug I'd probably play for free or 'bass equipment in hand'. I think I pay more tax than the current front bench combined and I certainly wouldn't want to contribute further lol.

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[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1499870803' post='3334206']
FIFY. It's now being paid as the loopholes have been closed.
[/quote]

The Isle of Jersey, and several others, still have their 'special' position concerning taxes, I believe. It's maybe 'fixed' for Amazon etc (I'm not really convinced, as it happens...), but there are still gaping 'loopholes' for the fiscally astute to benefit from.

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[quote name='martthebass' timestamp='1499858380' post='3334084']
Fortunately up here in the North it's still all cash in hand for the gigs I play (c. 50 gigs/year). I think a lot of 'weekend warriors' would have to look at things seriously if it wasn't this way.....
[/quote]

Amen

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[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1499884365' post='3334336']


Meaning?
[/quote]

[quote name='Rich' timestamp='1499862369' post='3334124']
Folks, I have edited several posts to remove political content. No more please.
[/quote]

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[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1499880771' post='3334304']


The Isle of Jersey, and several others, still have their 'special' position concerning taxes, I believe. It's maybe 'fixed' for Amazon etc (I'm not really convinced, as it happens...), but there are still gaping 'loopholes' for the fiscally astute to benefit from.
[/quote]

http://www.rossmartin.co.uk/penalties-a-compliance/compliance/1259-general-anti-abuse-rule-gaar-at-a-glance

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[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1499886003' post='3334348']
[url="http://www.rossmartin.co.uk/penalties-a-compliance/compliance/1259-general-anti-abuse-rule-gaar-at-a-glance"]http://www.rossmarti...aar-at-a-glance[/url]
[/quote]

[url="http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/commentanalysis/ethicaleconomics/theukandtaxhavens.aspx"]The UK and Tax Havens ...[/url]

[quote]
...
[b] UK at the center
[/b]
[color=#4D4D4D][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]
The Financial Secrecy Index shows that the United Kingdom is the most important global player in the financial secrecy world. While the UK itself ranks only in 21st place, it supports and partly controls a web of secrecy jurisdictions around the world, from the Cayman Islands and Bermuda to Jersey and Gibraltar. Had the entire British network been aggregated it would easily top the index, far above Switzerland.[/size][/font][/color][color=#4D4D4D][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]
David Cameron recently told the House of Commons: “I do not think it is fair any longer to refer to any of the Overseas Territories or Crown Dependencies as tax havens. They have taken action to ensure that they have fair and open tax systems.”[/size][/font][/color][color=#4D4D4D][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]
TJN’s research shows how baseless that claim is. While the British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands and some other British jurisdictions have recently curbed some secrecy offerings, others have expanded theirs. TJN assessed the territories across fifteen ‘secrecy indicators’ such as banking secrecy, publicly available company ownership, promotion of tax evasion and anti-money laundering. The table below shows the worst offenders.[/size][/font][/color][color=#4D4D4D][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]
...[/size][/font][/color][color=#4D4D4D][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]
[/quote] (There's lots more...)[/size][/font][/color]

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Nice link TimR only the "loophole" is so good it gets mentioned twice. HMRC can't do a thing unless

[color=#333333] ‘arrangements cannot reasonably be regarded as a reasonable course of action’.[/color]

[color=#333333]Fine point of law best argued by well paid lawyers which corperations have aplenty. The "[/color][b]The ‘double reasonableness’ test" is an expensive thing for HMRC to prove.[/b]

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[quote name='kodiakblair' timestamp='1499887198' post='3334366']
Nice link TimR only the "loophole" is so good it gets mentioned twice. HMRC can't do a thing unless

[color=#333333] ‘arrangements cannot reasonably be regarded as a reasonable course of action’.[/color]

[color=#333333]Fine point of law best argued by well paid lawyers which corperations have aplenty. The "[/color][b]The ‘double reasonableness’ test" is an expensive thing for HMRC to prove.[/b]
[/quote]

So much so that both Google and Amazon have already changed the way they operate as a result?

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[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1499887772' post='3334371']
So much so that both Google and Amazon have already changed the way they operate as a result?
[/quote] OK. You think they're being above board. I don't so here we part ways.

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[quote name='kodiakblair' timestamp='1499888071' post='3334374']
OK. You think they're being above board. I don't so here we part ways.
[/quote]

Lescherions stated it would be nice if the government looked at Google and Amazon first, a few posters also expressed the same sentiment. I'm just saying they did and changed the law which changed the behaviour of the large corporations.

I'm not sure an expensive lawyer makes a lot of difference. Ultimately it would be down to a jury to decide what was reasonable.

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[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1499926190' post='3334503']
Lescherions stated it would be nice if the government looked at Google and Amazon first, a few posters also expressed the same sentiment. I'm just saying they did and changed the law which changed the behaviour of the large corporations.

I'm not sure an expensive lawyer makes a lot of difference. Ultimately it would be down to a jury to decide what was reasonable.
[/quote]

With corporate entities of that size I'd say that public opinion is more likely to dictate that than a formal jury. That's just an opinion based on what we've already seen.

Reason? No. Just commerce. That is all.

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Pubs no longer have pots of cash after a nights takings any more. Contactless and regular card payments mean that their intake of money is only about 15% cash. Most of their takings now are visible to hmrc because of this so it's no longer an advantage to pay for anything in cash. Whereas before they had pots of cash and were desperate to pay with anything they could with it rather than declare it.

It's a cultural thing People in general are moving away from cash. Also, if done by bank transfer it is visible to hmrc and a portion can be written off. Finally if paid midweek or at the end of the month it can be reviewed by a manager and processed in a sober fashion.

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don't know about anybody else but I prefer to pay for my beer in cash, I can tell how much I've spent a lot easier (and whether I've been fiddled) I think it depends on what type of pub it is, generally the older the customers the more cash is used, indeed some pubs I go in don't even take cards or if they do you've got spend over a tenner, a separate issue, the big bad banks have made a brilliant job of making themselves indispensable don't you think?

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back to the OP, there are a few different things around the "no more cash in hand" idea.

Clearly it's a tax issue from HMRC's perspective, but there's also a welfare issue - that where the income is undocumented there is no way to check that people are actually getting the minimum wage, and beyond that ensuring that people are getting the correct NI credits for state benefits. The £6bn of missing tax isn't just what would be collected if payments currently made went through the books, it's what would be collected if the correct minimum pay went through the books.

This whole topic comes out of the Taylor Review into the gig economy, which isn't necessarily the same as the cash in hand undeclared for tax payments, but the same welfare issue applies. And it isn't the workers who are demanding to be paid as being self employed, but it's the companies insisting that their employees are in fact self employed so that they don't have to pay employer's NI and worry about things like the minimum wage.

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Good point. There's probably also a very small proportion of people being paid cash and claiming benefits.

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