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KevB

End of cash in hand for gigs?

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[quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1499813115' post='3333866']
Fine by me. I play for a living and would happily invoice for all services rendered. In an area with a busy music scene I can't imagine how so many venues wouldn't benefit from writing off those costs, and how so many musicians can scam their way through gigs. It is illegal, after all.

Maybe we'd get a bit more f***ing respect and have our services and skills bought with a more reasonable amount if we were known to be running a proper business by more venues and punters, and gigs couldn't just be thrown around week in, week out for pocketmoney.

But them maybe I'm just a jaded breadhead who cant possibly love what he does because he wants to do it by the book.
[/quote]

There's nothing illegal about being paid in cash, the venue will probably have made an entry into their books (that's not our job anyway) and the person receiving the cash can keep records and pay any taxes/receive and rebates on the cash at their leisure.

If you ring hmrc and tell them roughly what you are bringing in against what is going out for most weekend warriors they'll say don't bother of it's below a couple of grand, my wife ran her own business for a year and they did exactly that when she rang them and gave them the sums.

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Fair enough- scam was a bad choice of word. It's kind of catch-all slang, but the fact is that we often work illegally in pubs and clubs, no different to workers picking in fields, poorly paid, all in cash.

I shouldn't have posted when not sober, but I was expecting a response like yours Bazztard. I do all the same things, and have based my entire life around making music. I looked into being completely above-board, and found that lots of musos (even full time ones) dont want any record of their earnings, and venues don't want any record of their outgoings. Even if I do invoice, there's no paper trail so I'd look even more dodgy for having an unconnected set of ins and outs. I even know a guy without a bank account, he is very busy, earning cash, and wants to hide it.

Without going on about it, it isn't my high horse- it's the way things are supposed to be done, and my business, especially this year as I've recently stepped out of touring half the time, would be a lot easier and more honest if invoicing were accepted. It's already mandatory, just not done.

And I am a little bitter- I have a feeling that proper legal transactions in all directions might end up with a better deal all round, for venues and musos. I certainly could have done with being in a situation where the idea of a cancellation fee wasn't completely laughable over the last couple of weeks!

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[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1499855244' post='3334044']


There's nothing illegal about being paid in cash... ...and they did exactly that when she rang them and gave them the sums.
[/quote]

Popped up while I was typing. Being paid cash is fine, it's the refusal to accept invoices which makes it hard. And I play up to five gigs a week, with no other income, all local venues this year. I can invoice a couple pubs and a handful of weddings, but HMRC might like to know how I got by for '17-'18. Telling them it was all cash, and givng them a record of it all which I wrote down myself might not get brushed off quite so smoothly.

Maybe there's more provision for earning cash out of the landlords pocket than I thought, but I would still welcome a more invoice friendly system.

Edited by Jus Lukin

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[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1499816057' post='3333885']
Be nice if the government had a look at Amazon, PayPal and Starbucks before jumping on window cleaners and pub bands.

...
[/quote]

Politics.

But they did and in 2013 and 2016 bought in new laws that have effectively stopped them in their tracks. Amazon now pay tax on all UK delivery transactions when previously they were hiding it in Luxumberg, and Google have now stopped the 'licensing' activities.

It's a shame the government aren't a bit more vocal about their success in this area.

Edited by TimR

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[quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1499855255' post='3334045']


I shouldn't have posted when not sober,
[/quote]sage words indeed, I think a lot of us have been there :rolleyes:

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[quote name='BassBunny' timestamp='1499854745' post='3334040']

Correct. I do indeed have a great accountant and have received a tax rebate every year since I employed him. It's only when you see the figures at the end of the year, of what it actually costs you to gig regularly, that you realise how much it costs to persue our "hobby".


Which is exactly why you should bother.
[/quote]

I didn't think you could get a tax rebate if it was your hobby. If you can then I'm going to claim a tax rebate for all the things I buy to enable me to race.

All that's required is a diary showing gigs and payments and recipts of all your outgoings.

I think you can even claim for mileage to and from rehearsals, MP3 downloads, and any other 'equipment', but only against offsetting payments for gigging to demonstrate that it's a hobby. You can't offset the loss you make against your day job taxes unless you're a self employed full time musician of course and then you're actively trying to make a profit.

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It doesn't really bother me tbh.

I get cash for gigs, and for teaching, it's all paid into my bank. I make a trip down a couple of times a week. I don't use cash for anything, personally I dislike carrying money, I love contactless .

I'm of the opinion that the government should first of all look at the dodgy dealings of Google, Starbucks's, Amazon, G4S and the myriad other tax dodging corporations, before picking on people out earning what are in actual fact very little amounts, and when transport costs, and equipment purchases are taken into account, they probably run into a loss anyway.

Edited by Rich
political content removed

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There is something pleasing about sweating on a stage for a few hours and being instantly rewarded with a bunch of notes. Being paid after the cheque has cleared just doesn't do it.

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[quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1499856058' post='3334052']
Popped up while I was typing. Being paid cash is fine, it's the refusal to accept invoices which makes it hard. And I play up to five gigs a week, with no other income, all local venues this year. I can invoice a couple pubs and a handful of weddings, but HMRC might like to know how I got by for '16-'17. Telling them it was all cash, and givng them a record of it all which I wrote down myself might not get brushed off quite so smoothly.

Maybe there's more provision for earning cash out of the landlords pocket than I thought, but I would still welcome a more invoice friendly system.
[/quote]never understood why landlords pay a band 'off the books' after all it's tax deductable for them, on the other hand if you don't sign a receipt for the money it's a gig done for free as far as some bands are concerned.
Of course if it's your main source of income you have to justify your life style as opposed to your declared income, a lot of tax avoiders get caught out like that

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[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1499856733' post='3334060']


I didn't think you could get a tax rebate if it was your hobby. If you can then I'm going to claim a tax rebate for all the things I buy to enable me to race.

All that's required is a diary showing gigs and payments and recipts of all your outgoings.

I think you can even claim for mileage to and from rehearsals, MP3 downloads, and any other 'equipment', but only against offsetting payments for gigging to demonstrate that it's a hobby. You can't offset the loss you make against your day job taxes unless you're a self employed full time musician of course and then you're actively trying to make a profit.
[/quote]

I'd be surprised if you couldn't, I'm not an expert, but I don't think it makes a difference if it's your hobby, you're still getting an income from it.

It's surprising what you can claim each year, stage clothes, suits, black trousers etc, strings and other equipment, software, I can even deduct my Mmus fees, which are classed as personal development.

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[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1499856777' post='3334061']
It doesn't really bother me tbh.

I get cash for gigs, and for teaching, it's all paid into my bank. I make a trip down a couple of times a week. I don't use cash for anything, personally I dislike carrying money, I love contactless ��.

I'm of the opinion that the government should first of all look at the dodgy dealings of Google, Starbucks's, Amazon, G4S and the myriad other tax dodging corporations, before picking on people out earning what are in actual fact very little amounts, and when transport costs, and equipment purchases are taken into account, they probably run into a loss anyway.
[/quote]

Sir, the following have something in common:
Amazon, Costa coffee, Starbucks, Vodafone, CEF, PayPal, Uber, eBay, Google....

Yes, they don't pay tax. Amazon, for one, doesn't to my knowledge, even pay VAT in the UK on goods you buy. But they all have bigger lawyers than we can afford.

We, dear friends are the "low-hanging fruit". The Snoopers charter was never about terrorism. There's no money in that. But there is money in checking email to find small businesses.

Edited by Grangur
political content removed from quote

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[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1499857006' post='3334066']


I'd be surprised if you couldn't, I'm not an expert, but I don't think it makes a difference if it's your hobby, you're still getting an income from it.

It's surprising what you can claim each year, stage clothes, suits, black trousers etc, strings and other equipment, software, I can even deduct my Mmus fees, which are classed as personal development.
[/quote]

You can't if it's a hobby, only if you can demonstrate that you're making money from it in order to run it as a profit.

It's either a hobby or a business.

If it's a business and you're not making a profit they'll start asking questions.

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Fortunately up here in the North it's still all cash in hand for the gigs I play (c. 50 gigs/year). I think a lot of 'weekend warriors' would have to look at things seriously if it wasn't this way.....

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[quote name='casapete' timestamp='1499854276' post='3334037']
There's something great about getting paid in readies at the end of the night after a pub gig...
[/quote]

It's the same where ever there are people who put something of themselves into their work mate. I started out working in engineering. I remember the loss of incentive to get out of bed for work that occurred within me years ago because the pay packet was eliminated for "good".

It started when we went from weekly pay packets to hybrid (fixed cash sum with the remainder on a cheque) weekly pay packets. It forced us workers into a closer relationship with banks that, for the time, just wasn't normal. We still collected our pay by queueing at the Pay Window by the Time Office. For lots of works this was a weekly routine and quite a social one. It seems not to exist any more except perhaps in the smaller firms. Even then I can't imagine that there are many legitimate companies giving out pay packets any more.

What is not understood by today's generations is the social aspect of that tradition and especially the consequence of it's eventual demise. When that and in-house catering were eradicated wholesale from the workplace there weren't the same opportunities to be sociable with your workmates other than in your own time outside of working hours.

I lost interest in work altogether however when we were converted to the soulless bank automated transfer every fortnight. Soon after monthly pay was fully imposed. The unions had said that it was an inevitability and they were right.

You can justify it as much as you like but [i]getting paid[/i] is almost as rewarding as the cash value in the act of handing over the money. Receiving money at your account is not.

Musicians are in one of a small group of occupations that still get cash in hand with no suggestion of illegal activity, tax evasion or hiding income in some way. Looks like it won't last forever sadly.

Bah.

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[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1499853733' post='3334034']
Playing devils advocate, if all the small time tax dodgers were added up it would probably be far bigger tax loss than what the likes of Starbucks and Amazon cost the exchequer, you're talking billions of pounds, that's why the Government hates cash, but it'll be a long time before people start paying the window cleaner in anything other than cash. Slightly different point, some pubs want to pay in cash because it costs them to bank money (not as much as paying by card costs them though), they like to get rid of it, hence cashback
[/quote]

My point was aimed more at the fact the loopholes that the lawyers can exploit have been left in place, mostly, so they are or were there to exploit. And they were left in place by, mostly, well off MPs so there well off mates can save on taxes and be even richer. So they know the big companies are doing it but largely chose to ignore it because its the old boys network.

Not the same as Joe Bloggs earning £20 cash on a weekend, how would you police that? I believe the measures are being brought in to stop companies exploiting workers and avoiding paying NI etc. Hence the term proper jobs, with real prospects, rather than zero hours or cash in hand. Difficult getting a mortgage or a rental agreement if you are paid cash in hand as your only income source.

Edited by mikel

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[quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1499856058' post='3334052']


Popped up while I was typing. Being paid cash is fine, it's the refusal to accept invoices which makes it hard. And I play up to five gigs a week, with no other income, all local venues this year. I can invoice a couple pubs and a handful of weddings, but HMRC might like to know how I got by for '17-'18. Telling them it was all cash, and givng them a record of it all which I wrote down myself might not get brushed off quite so smoothly.

Maybe there's more provision for earning cash out of the landlords pocket than I thought, but I would still welcome a more invoice friendly system.
[/quote]

It's not your problem what they do with the invoice, you give them the invoice and collect the cash, make it out to Michael mouse, 12 Coronation Street if that's what they want.

:)

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Folks, I have edited several posts to remove political content. No more please.

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I suspect landlords like paying out cash because, in some instances, they have a budget from their brewery and can account for that allowance while having no record of how much was actually paid out.

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[quote name='Adrenochrome' timestamp='1499846873' post='3333964']
For what it's worth people have submitted proper tax returns from doing weekend warrior pub gigs, and with all the deductable stuff the taxman ended up owing them. Taxman eventually said don't bother.
[/quote]

This^^^

If it makes money its a taxable endeavour. If it makes a loss its a hobby.

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[quote name='gs_triumph' timestamp='1499863446' post='3334129']...
If it makes money its a taxable endeavour. If it makes a loss its a hobby.
[/quote]

So by that token, running 'Soundcloud' would be a hobby, then..? :huh:

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[quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1499862404' post='3334125']
I suspect landlords like paying out cash because, in some instances, they have a budget from their brewery and can account for that allowance while having no record of how much was actually paid out.
[/quote]

Or cash not declared as takings disappears never to be seen again. Doesn't get taxed, no banking fees to pay.

It's bit of a double whammy of you are self employed and working through a business bank account. You get charged for paying cash in. Charged for taking cash out. Charged for cheque. Charged for withdrawals. Charged even for bacs payments. Then you have to pay tax on it. Much cheaper if it just passes from the till to the band.

Edited by gs_triumph

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[quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1499862404' post='3334125']
I suspect landlords like paying out cash because, in some instances, they have a budget from their brewery and can account for that allowance while having no record of how much was actually paid out.
[/quote]

Pretty much exactly what I was told by the landlord of a local Greene King pub. The brewery no insists that all transactions are processed through Invapay as some LLs had been pocketing the cash for non-existent gigs.

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[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1499863598' post='3334132']


So by that token, running 'Soundcloud' would be a hobby, then..? :huh:
[/quote]

Only if someone is writing the loss off against earnings elsewhere 😉

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