Bassman Sam Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 Last night I went to see Limehouse Lizzy, a band that I shared management with many moons ago. They were supporting Livewire, the AC/DC tribute show. Lizzy have been going for over 20 years and have a great reputation but the sound last night was terrible. Muddy to say the least, The vocals were so low in the mix, they couldn't be heard. The balance between the guitars was bad and the bass was a low rumble, individual notes did not stand out. Livewire came on, perfect sound and balance. It made me wonder if Lizzy had been stitched up by a soundman that wanted the headliners to sound better. I had that problem in the past myself, any views? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 We supported a 2Tone band recently and when chatting to the sound guy he apologised in advance, as the headline band stipulated no PA subs till they came on 😡 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 I've seen Limehouse Lizzy a couple of times and sound was always excellent. Sounds like a dodgy sound man to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman Sam Posted December 11, 2016 Author Share Posted December 11, 2016 [quote name='molan' timestamp='1481492690' post='3192727'] I've seen Limehouse Lizzy a couple of times and sound was always excellent. Sounds like a dodgy sound man to me. [/quote] That's what I thought Barry. I was embarrassed with how bad they sounded. I had taken some friends along, telling them how much they would enjoy the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman Sam Posted December 11, 2016 Author Share Posted December 11, 2016 [quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1481492664' post='3192726'] We supported a 2Tone band recently and when chatting to the sound guy he apologised in advance, as the headline band stipulated no PA subs till they came on [/quote] That's out of order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidder652003 Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 God you would think that wasnt possible in the 21st century. Even an average pub band can sound decent with whats out there these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 [quote name='Bassman Sam' timestamp='1481493169' post='3192730'] That's what I thought Barry. I was embarrassed with how bad they sounded. I had taken some friends along, telling them how much they would enjoy the show. [/quote] My local venue used to be The Torrington in Finchley. Fairly decent PA there and most bands used the house sound guy. Piss him off or treat him badly and he'd make you sound absolute sh*t. I saw a guitarist give him stick in a very uncompromising and public way once because he was struggling with his monitor volume. Sound guy sorted him in the monitors, then pulled him out of the front of house mix completely. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman Sam Posted December 11, 2016 Author Share Posted December 11, 2016 [quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1481493341' post='3192732'] God you would think that wasnt possible in the 21st century. Even an average pub band can sound decent with whats out there these days. [/quote] So true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerstodge Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 [quote name='molan' timestamp='1481493570' post='3192735'] My local venue used to be The Torrington in Finchley. Fairly decent PA there and most bands used the house sound guy. Piss him off or treat him badly and he'd make you sound absolute sh*t. I saw a guitarist give him stick in a very uncompromising and public way once because he was struggling with his monitor volume. Sound guy sorted him in the monitors, then pulled him out of the front of house mix completely. . . [/quote] We had similar once, our singer started effing and blinding at the lighting guy cos it was a bit dark, he turned every light, cans , strobe on full belt for the whole gig, we had to wring our clothes out after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 It`s always best to have someone along who knows the bands sound so at soundcheck they can give the nod as to what needs changing. All of what is described in the OP should have been sorted prior to the performance. It does seem that there is a current trend for vox to be just about audible, so when we soundcheck if this has been the case for the other bands I`ll speak to the sound-person and tell them that we like our vox to not just be heard but to be understood, so if that means the backline being quier through FOH so be it. A lot of it I find is clear communication, and instead of ranting be pleasant and ask. I also give the sound-person a list of band details/line-up, and what is required in the monitors for each band member. As a couple of posts have put, you`re at the mercy of those on the desk/lights, so the more professional and pleasant you are, the less likely they are - hopefully - to knack you in on purpose. Of course if they perceive you as a prima-donna due to behaviour then it`s their way of payback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 (edited) [quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1481492664' post='3192726'] We supported a 2Tone band recently and when chatting to the sound guy he apologised in advance, as the headline band stipulated no PA subs till they came on 😡 [/quote] Interesting. I've always wondered when we play Summerfest as support in the afternoon on the same stage with the same sound as the headliner, we have crap sound and the headliner has fantastic first rate sound. Now I actually believe the headliner has contracted for a level of sound support acts know nothing about. Blue Edited December 11, 2016 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) I think it's pretty standard for the support to be a bit quieter than the headliner. The exception being when I saw Brittany Fox supporting Alice Cooper on the Trash tour, which was the single loudest thing I've ever heard in my life. I swear that when they came on and played the opening chords to 'Girls School' the everybody in the floor section of the NEC took a step back, I could actually feel the air that the PA was moving like a rhythmic wind against my face. I've since wondered whether they deliberately played at half volume during the sound check then maxed it when they went on. As to whether their sound was better than Alice's headline slot, I'll never know. I was partially deaf for five days. Edited December 12, 2016 by Cato Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinArto Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Lol. Tribute bands. Anyway, be nice to the sound guys and they'll be nice to you. I remember one venue we used to play regularly the guy on the desk was practically like an extra band member, playing with delays on the vox and drums for us and really doing a number on it, great guy. First time he did that the headline was Neville Staple and he clearly had no time for him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul S Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 It could also be that the main band took up all the soundcheck time, leaving the support's sound to be fixed on the fly. Happened to me recently when sharing the stage. Main band were supposed to have been sound checked and finished for 5:30pm so we could get loaded in, set up and sound checked. I got there at the appointed time - they hadn't even started as they hadn't all turned up at that point. I think we were left with about 10 minutes before the doors opened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubit Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 It's a shame , because when you are giving your all, you expect the sound out front to be good. I would always expect support bands to be quieter, but to deny them subs, or a decent mix, is just disgusting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubit Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1481496229' post='3192756'] It`s always best to have someone along who knows the bands sound so at soundcheck they can give the nod as to what needs changing. All of what is described in the OP should have been sorted prior to the performance. It does seem that there is a current trend for vox to be just about audible, so when we soundcheck if this has been the case for the other bands I`ll speak to the sound-person and tell them that we like our vox to not just be heard but to be understood, so if that means the backline being quier through FOH so be it. A lot of it I find is clear communication, and instead of ranting be pleasant and ask. I also give the sound-person a list of band details/line-up, and what is required in the monitors for each band member. As a couple of posts have put, you`re at the mercy of those on the desk/lights, so the more professional and pleasant you are, the less likely they are - hopefully - to knack you in on purpose. Of course if they perceive you as a prima-donna due to behaviour then it`s their way of payback. [/quote] Trouble is, most bands don't have the luxury of a soundman of their own, or an extra guy to help with sound advice I firmly believe vocals should be the loudest thing as it's the most important to the song. Bass drum close second, then everything else in balance under these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaytonaRik Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 This made me chuckle so much - we were forced to cancel a series of gigs at LHL's insistence at a venue. Sadly, the venue had forgotten this completely and accused us of acting unprofessionally by informing them on the day were were not actually playing on Saturday night. Much mud slinging across social media until our guitarist suggested he post the email the venue sent him...at which point their posts were removed. Karma - don't you love it! I owe that sound engineer a beer or two! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisd783 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 It's unfortunate that this seems to be a thing, but a thing it appears to be. I've been suspicious of it for some time now. I've even fallen victim to it once. One of the comments has been that if you're nice to sound guys then they're nice to you but unfortunately this hasn't always been the case for me. I arrived at a summer festival gig where we were supporting another band. I went to the sound desk straight away, introduced myself, spent time talking to them both and asked how THEY wanted to do things. We set out a plan of attack but I gave them the lead and I was polite at all times. We set up and did a very long sound check, fine-tuned everything and it was sounding perfect, I was delighted with the sound and they were really helpful and took time to pay attention to the details. We started the show, and they'd changed everything! It was muddy, could hardly hear the vocals, the kick drum was non-existent, and it had previously been perfect. I was asking for things to be tweaked between songs over the mic, the sound guys wouldn't make eye contact with me just kept giving the thumbs up, but no noticeable difference was made to the sound while we were playing. The main act came on and guess what? Absolutely pristine sound. I went straight to the sound desk to ask what had happened, and their reply was 'welcome to the music industry.' After I had been dragged away by the rest of the band and calmed down, I ended up feeling really disappointed that there were people who would deliberately sabotage a live performance because we weren't the 'main band.' I was polite, friendly and helpful to them from the word go but they screwed our set up regardless without batting an eyelid. Not only is this unfair on the support band and the audience, but surely this is unprofessional in the extreme? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='AustinArto' timestamp='1481502913' post='3192802'] Lol. Tribute bands. [/quote] I missed the joke... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 The best £10 spent at any gig is a pie and a pint for the sound guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaytonaRik Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1481540012' post='3192988'] The best £10 spent at any gig is a pie and a pint for the sound guy. [/quote] ^ This. In spades! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewisK1975 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='chrisd783' timestamp='1481539717' post='3192984'] It's unfortunate that this seems to be a thing, but a thing it appears to be. I've been suspicious of it for some time now. I've even fallen victim to it once. One of the comments has been that if you're nice to sound guys then they're nice to you but unfortunately this hasn't always been the case for me. I arrived at a summer festival gig where we were supporting another band. I went to the sound desk straight away, introduced myself, spent time talking to them both and asked how THEY wanted to do things. We set out a plan of attack but I gave them the lead and I was polite at all times. We set up and did a very long sound check, fine-tuned everything and it was sounding perfect, I was delighted with the sound and they were really helpful and took time to pay attention to the details. We started the show, and they'd changed everything! It was muddy, could hardly hear the vocals, the kick drum was non-existent, and it had previously been perfect. I was asking for things to be tweaked between songs over the mic, the sound guys wouldn't make eye contact with me just kept giving the thumbs up, but no noticeable difference was made to the sound while we were playing. The main act came on and guess what? Absolutely pristine sound. I went straight to the sound desk to ask what had happened, and their reply was 'welcome to the music industry.' After I had been dragged away by the rest of the band and calmed down, I ended up feeling really disappointed that there were people who would deliberately sabotage a live performance because we weren't the 'main band.' I was polite, friendly and helpful to them from the word go but they screwed our set up regardless without batting an eyelid. Not only is this unfair on the support band and the audience, but surely this is unprofessional in the extreme? [/quote] Have a look at post #2: [quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1481492664' post='3192726'] We supported a 2Tone band recently and when chatting to the sound guy he apologised in advance, as the headline band stipulated no PA subs till they came on [/quote] I'd suggest there's a fairly good chance it wasn't the sound guys fault - he could well have been under instruction from the headliners or someone else to have a poor mix for the support band(s)..gutting either way, but there's plenty of evidence, even just in this thread, to show that it does happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_lefty Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Surely if the support act sounds good more people will want to stay for the main act? Otherwise just put an iPod on shuffle until the main band goes on, why screw someone over who is there to provide a good chunk of the entertainment. I can accept when its a festival and the sound guys are dealing with a conveyer belt of different bands they will do their best without fine tuning but to get the support act right then screw them to make the main band sound better is b.s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Steve Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) I don't know Limehouse Lizzie at all so I'll start by making clear that this isn't aimed at them in particular, just as another option...but I've seen a few bands f#ck up their own sound quite badly over the years. the one that sticks out is a four band gig I did a few years back, smallish room under a pub with the top three bands sharing kit which meant the soundman had a fairly easy job of just adjusting volumes without needing to worry too much about the eq. Then the openers turned up - the band's first gig, offered as a favour by someone at the venue to give them a helping hand. Arrived late, and with a mountain of their own gear that they insisted on playing through, volumes way too loud for the room, and there then followed a 45 minute battle with the soundman where they kept insisting that they were right because they knew how they wanted to sound, and the classic newbie mistake of confusing on stage and off stage sound. threw the running times completely off and the venue had to open the doors about half an hour late. They then played to a largely empty room despite it being sold out, because everybody had been driven back into the main pub by the sheer volume. I went in to have a word with the soundman (mainly to make sure that he wasn't going to let the rest of us sound like that) and he just shrugged - they had decided to dispense with the PA for everything but drums and vocals, wouldn't DI the bass, so the volume was their backline turned up to 11 and there was nothing he could do to stop them. He did then pull the PA when their allotted time was up, with the band thinking that they were only half way through their set, and explained to them with a grin that when you're bottom of the bill you don't get to overrun. Hopefully they learned that a good soundman is your best friend Edited December 12, 2016 by Monkey Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewisK1975 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1481549922' post='3193144'] ....Arrived late, and with a mountain of their own gear[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] that they insisted on playing through[/font][/color]...... [/quote] This is the key line in the post. I wouldn't have cared how 'insistent' they were, if it were me, they would have played through the shared backline, or not at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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