4-piece band + backing tracks for guitarist. Hmmmm...

[cheddatom]

I've never been to jam nights, so I wouldn't know if it's a dying art in general, but I do spend time with a lot of young bands, and I've jammed with lots of them who can improvise.

[crez5150]

Doing a showcase gig tonight in Mayfair with an upcoming singer.... Guitar, Bass, Drums, Sax, 4 vocals and a click track with sequence.... looking forward to it. I'll report back

[fretmeister]

To do justice to some tunes they are needed.

You're not going to get a choir in or a string section for 2 songs in the list.

[fretmeister]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1477467347' post='3162352']
Dave, I love improvisation. I think it's a dying art.

Against my better judgement I recently went to an open mic. When I was called up me and the drummer started a groove improvising in G major 7th.


We were waiting for the young guitarist to come in. He didn't come in. He walked over to me and to and says;

'I only know songs"

?

Blue
[/quote]

Sounds like an awful lot of highly skilled classical musicians to me.

I play in a local educational orchestra (and smaller ensembles) and the drummer / percussionist and me have a lot of pub gig experience. We piss about with the tunes as we feel like it (or up to the point we get told off!)

The vast majority of the classical guys get upset when we are doing that, let alone when they are told they can improv! They seem to freeze, or play what is written with the odd added octave or rest!

One of my mates is a cellist. Could sight read Grade 8 exam pieces in a dark room wearing sunglasses. She can't improvise worth a damn.Funnily enough the players of the "jazz" instruments (trumpet, clarinets etc) seem to be far better. I suppose there is more of a cross-over for those instruments. But the bassoons and cellos etc - not a chance.

[mrtcat]

I totally understand about the feeling of being stuck to a strict structure and of course that's absolutely true. I think if you used click for every song in the set it would feel pretty restrictive but if you were in a 15 piece outfit with strings and horns etc you would be pretty restricted anyhow. As before though, it's all about context. We wouldn't use tracks for pub gigs if we ever did them. We'd just enjoy the freedom and lack of pressure but for bigger functions we often have lighting programmed too so that would stop us from straying from structure too. We don't use tracks on every song but probably about 40%. You can still change the running order on the fly.
It really helps if your drummer is up to it. If he can keep the energy and feel whilst working with a click it's great. We have spoken prompts on the click which is a great safety net to keep everyone together although some of the guys prefer not to hear the click and therefore don't get the prompts.

[JTUK]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1477427031' post='3162212']
The Motown band I play with use tracks - it means we can go out as anything from a five piece to a ten piece and still play the same set - I'd prefer to always have at least six or seven of us, but if the client doesn't have the budget for that, [b]would you rather stick by your "artistic integrity" of your working covers band (a concept I struggle to understand - you're playing what punters want to hear and are there to do a job, its not your magnum opus you're creating) [/b]but not be able to afford to fill your fridge that week? I'd rather stick the horns on playback for the night and pay the bills, if that's quite alright with you lot?
[/quote]

Generally I would be thinking I'd advise the client on the best course which is to do it our way. So altho budget is a BIG consideration, playing what the punters wants to hear is not. The reason we'd be having the conversation with the client is because they want what we do so they don't get to call the set. If they want that, get someone else.
If the band wanted to money that badly, they may need to consider throwing in a few numbers but mostly they don't. Yes, this does cost gigs.

[mrtcat]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1477481256' post='3162478']


Generally I would be thinking I'd advise the client on the best course which is to do it our way. So altho budget is a BIG consideration, playing what the punters wants to hear is not. The reason we'd be having the conversation with the client is because they want what we do so they don't get to call the set. If they want that, get someone else.
If the band wanted to money that badly, they may need to consider throwing in a few numbers but mostly they don't. Yes, this does cost gigs.
[/quote]

Personally I would take the gig rather than take that approach. The guys in the band are essentially all pros except me and the singer. They will go where the work is and will happily flex to suit the customer if it means getting the gig. Playing only what they want, the way they want to play it doesn't pay their mortgages.

Edited October 26, 2016 by mrtcat

[lowdown]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1477478372' post='3162446']
One of my mates is a cellist. Could sight read Grade 8 exam pieces in a dark room wearing sunglasses. She can't improvise worth a damn.Funnily enough the players of the "jazz" instruments (trumpet, clarinets etc) seem to be far better. I suppose there is more of a cross-over for those instruments. But the bassoons and cellos etc - not a chance.
[/quote]

Judging by responses on this board over the years, there are a lot of Bass players that can't improvise, or are out of the depth/comfort zone busking tunes on a gig without tabs/dots/Mp3/CD's before hand.
A bit unfair to single out Classical musicians.

[ambient]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1477478372' post='3162446']


Sounds like an awful lot of highly skilled classical musicians to me.

I play in a local educational orchestra (and smaller ensembles) and the drummer / percussionist and me have a lot of pub gig experience. We piss about with the tunes as we feel like it (or up to the point we get told off!)

The vast majority of the classical guys get upset when we are doing that, let alone when they are told they can improv! They seem to freeze, or play what is written with the odd added octave or rest!

One of my mates is a cellist. Could sight read Grade 8 exam pieces in a dark room wearing sunglasses. She can't improvise worth a damn.Funnily enough the players of the "jazz" instruments (trumpet, clarinets etc) seem to be far better. I suppose there is more of a cross-over for those instruments. But the bassoons and cellos etc - not a chance.
[/quote]

This brings to mind the recent playing by ear thread. A fair few guys on here seem to have to 'learn' a song and practice it before playing it.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1477492569' post='3162576']
This brings to mind the recent playing by ear thread. A fair few guys on here seem to have to 'learn' a song and practice it before playing it.
[/quote]

Depending on the song, of course, I'd say that this is pretty well standard for many musicians. One doesn't play along with Mendelssohn 'by ear' often. Some 'jammable' numbers can be improvised to, but many need at least a 'once through' to be credible. You may be exceptionally gifted, of course, but it's not given to many.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Dad3353

[mike257]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1477481256' post='3162478']


Generally I would be thinking I'd advise the client on the best course which is to do it our way. So altho budget is a BIG consideration, playing what the punters wants to hear is not. The reason we'd be having the conversation with the client is because they want what we do so they don't get to call the set. If they want that, get someone else.
If the band wanted to money that badly, they may need to consider throwing in a few numbers but mostly they don't. Yes, this does cost gigs.
[/quote]

The client has usually booked the Motown band because they want to hear reasonably faithful renditions of classic pop songs that they know and love. We have some really great singers we use who have brilliant energy and stage presence and know how to whip the crowd up. If the client can't afford for us to bring the keys player, horn section and extra singers, we can still do the gig with guitar, bass, drums and two singers. We all prefer to at least have live keys and sax, and the gigs with three singers and three piece horn section are the most fun. We aren't setting their budget though. If we couldn't scale the gig to cater to it, we'd have a lot less work in the book.

When I say "playing what the punters want to hear", I certain don't mean they pick and choose the set list, but every function band is providing a service and doing a job. You are there to fill the dancefloor and entertain the guests, not to serve yourself. The OP was talking about a working function band and in my experience the use of tracks to fill out additional keys, horns, electronics etc is not at all uncommon.

Your situation is different JT - you aren't depending on this, so you are free to insist on your particularly specific criteria to play a gig, but for working pros it's a different game. I'd suggest that in this case, whilst it might be a new experience for the OP, I'd go in to it with an open mind and give it a go. If done properly it can result in a massive, slick and professional sound.

Edited October 26, 2016 by mike257

[EBS_freak]

The world according to JTUK really is fascinating.

[JTUK]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1477498410' post='3162623']
The client has usually booked the Motown band because they want to hear reasonably faithful renditions of classic pop songs that they know and love. We have some really great singers we use who have brilliant energy and stage presence and know how to whip the crowd up. If the client can't afford for us to bring the keys player, horn section and extra singers, we can still do the gig with guitar, bass, drums and two singers. We all prefer to at least have live keys and sax, and the gigs with three singers and three piece horn section are the most fun. We aren't setting their budget though. If we couldn't scale the gig to cater to it, we'd have a lot less work in the book.

When I say "playing what the punters want to hear", I certain don't mean they pick and choose the set list, but every function band is providing a service and doing a job. You are there to fill the dancefloor and entertain the guests, not to serve yourself. The OP was talking about a working function band and in my experience the use of tracks to fill out additional keys, horns, electronics etc is not at all uncommon.

Your situation is different JT - you aren't depending on this, so you are free to insist on your particularly specific criteria to play a gig, but for working pros it's a different game. I'd suggest that in this case, whilst it might be a new experience for the OP, I'd go in to it with an open mind and give it a go. If done properly it can result in a massive, slick and professional sound.
[/quote]

No, you are right, I'm not, but the others would be so if order for me to drag them off or compete with good gigs I have to get a few things right.
However, the set isn't one of them, it is what it is and people/clients will know that before hand.

But I do maintain that doing things this way, the standard is high and the evening will work.

If I don't think the band will hit the spot, I can offer the gig out to one or two other bands that I'll recommend.

It is debatable which position you want to be in tho... free to choose or take the money, but that is another thread..and there have been many.

[EBS_freak]

Bloody hell, you don't half play hard ball with the Tickled Trout.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477501537' post='3162648']
Bloody hell, you don't half play hard ball with the Tickled Trout.
[/quote]

[blue]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1477467714' post='3162357']
I agree, Blue, there seem to be fewer people able to simply play, they have to have something recorded in their brains and just press the internal play button. It's only in the last few years that I've had to really learn songs, before that it was just a question of what key, what sort of feel, and go for it. I still much prefer to work that way, playing other people's basslines feels a bit wrong at time, like wearing their dirty socks.
[/quote]

Agreed,

Dave we recently added "The Weight" and "Lay Down Sally" to our set list. Pretty easy tunes. I went out to YouTube and searched for covers to get ideas on how I wanted to approach these songs.

I studied a few live covers and said ok I get it. Then I come up with my version or take on the songs, how I would play it.

YouTube is just a tool that I use in different ways and utilize.

Some will struggle with a song forever before they will seek help.

But hey, I'm retired. I have all the time in the world to woodshed and YouTube.

Blue

Edited October 26, 2016 by blue

[blue]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1477478372' post='3162446']


Sounds like an awful lot of highly skilled classical musicians to me.

I play in a local educational orchestra (and smaller ensembles) and the drummer / percussionist and me have a lot of pub gig experience. We piss about with the tunes as we feel like it (or up to the point we get told off!)

The vast majority of the classical guys get upset when we are doing that, let alone when they are told they can improv! They seem to freeze, or play what is written with the odd added octave or rest!

One of my mates is a cellist. Could sight read Grade 8 exam pieces in a dark room wearing sunglasses. She can't improvise worth a damn.Funnily enough the players of the "jazz" instruments (trumpet, clarinets etc) seem to be far better. I suppose there is more of a cross-over for those instruments. But the bassoons and cellos etc - not a chance.
[/quote]

As a teen, me and my best friend would stay in his basement for hours on end playing and listening to Muddy Waters and Albert King. All that jamming and improvising at a young age has been invaluable.

Blue

[FinnDave]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1477505853' post='3162693']
As a teen, me and my best friend would stay in his basement for hours on end playing and listening to Muddy Waters and Albert King. All that jamming and improvising at a young age has been invaluable.

Blue
[/quote]

Can't think of anything by Albert King that isn't worth its weight in gold, brilliant musician.

[KevB]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1477498410' post='3162623']

When I say "playing what the punters want to hear", I certain don't mean they pick and choose the set list, but every function band is providing a service and doing a job. You are there to fill the dancefloor and entertain the guests, not to serve yourself. The OP was talking about a working function band and in my experience the use of tracks to fill out additional keys, horns, electronics etc is not at all uncommon.

[/quote]

Bang on

[blue]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1477510524' post='3162736']


Can't think of anything by Albert King that isn't worth its weight in gold, brilliant musician.
[/quote]

And all that stuff lends itself to rock & roll , prog, just about any form of pop music.

Click tracks, if it's done right I guess it's fine.

Blue

Edited October 27, 2016 by blue

[blue]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1477510524' post='3162736']


Can't think of anything by Albert King that isn't worth its weight in gold, brilliant musician.
[/quote]

And a fine mechanic.If the bus broke done Albert was the guy under the hood.

Blues

Edited October 27, 2016 by blue

[FinnDave]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1477529107' post='3162840']
And a fine mechanic.If the bus broke done Albert was the guy under the hood.

Blues
[/quote]
Just like the Wirebirds guitarist, another Al, he fixes trucks etc as a day job. Fingers like fat sausages, but man can he get some sweet blues out of his guitar.

[solo4652]

Still can't get hold of the drummer for a chat. He's offered to send examples of the guitarist and singer at rehearsal. I've asked for the songlist. Via email, I've also asked him about the guitarist's use of backing tracks, and whether he can replace the brake discs on my Seat.

[lowdown]

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1477559098' post='3162920']
Still can't get hold of the drummer for a chat. He's offered to send examples of the guitarist and singer at rehearsal. I've asked for the songlist. Via email, I've also asked him about the guitarist's use of backing tracks, and whether he can replace the brake discs on my Seat.
[/quote]

[paul_5]

Rush have done pretty well out of this sort of setup for a few years...