Scales - Whats the point?

[Weststarx]

Hi All,

I recently decided that I should learn some theory and start learning what I'm 'supposed to know'.


I started learning the major scale and didnt really see the point in what I was doing.... I play in a covers band so when will I actually ever need or use a scale? Especially as a bass player where I'm not soloing or doing anything other than root notes with 90% of the songs we play.

Or am I missing the point?

Edited September 22, 2014 by Weststarx

[JapanAxe]

Play the bass line from 'Good Times' by Chic. You have just played a D major scale, starting on the 2nd (E), which makes it the Dorian mode.

TBH you are better off relating your playing to chords first. With this in mind, I suggest you work your way through the exercises on studybass.com.

[FuNkShUi]

Well i wouldnt say your missing the point.
It just depends what you want from your playing.
Learning and practicing scales will give you ideas on what will sound good in different contexts.
If you hear a run in a song your trying to work out... If you understand scales, and you know what key your in, itll usually be easier to work the little runs out.
I played bass for 8 years before i ever had a lesson.
I thought i was a good enough bassist. I had a lesson, started the road of learning theory and it was like a whole new world opened up to me musically.
I think there is a big difference to learning scales on your own, and being taught scales with a teacher mind.
They will be able to point out why what your doing is useful etc

Edited September 22, 2014 by FuNkShUi

[jgmh315]

A knowledge of scales has helped me to be able to play along to most tunes without too much trouble.
As said, once you figure out the key of the song you can then work out the bass line pretty easily in most cases.

[Bassman Steve]

Someone was paying attention at the SE mini bash!!!

[chris_b]

You [i]are[/i] missing the point.

Scales are about knowing where the notes are in the chord and on the fretboard. Scales are about fluency and playing without having to plan where the next note is. Scales help muscle memory to make sure the right finger arrives at the right note without having to think about it.

Scales are boring but they have a very serious purpose. Of course you can do without them but you will be less of the player that you could have been.

At the end of the day, that might not matter in your playing environment. The choice is yours.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Theory allows you to accurately describe what sounds cool, understand the relationship between the different musical elements in the music you are playing, and increases your ability to reuse a musical idea in a different situation - my impression is that a lot of people are turned off by the mathematical and technical language if they attempt something like associated board grade 5 theory at evening classes, but there are more accessible sources of information and knowing this stuff will make you a better musician overall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bvgAbWRdIA

[Doddy]

Scales are the foundation.
Let's take a C major scale....dead easy. Do you want to know the chord tones of a C chord? Take the 1, 3, 5 of the scale(CEG).
Want to know about basic diatonic harmony? Look at the scale.Start with C..the third is E=C maj. Start on D..third is F=D minor.
Modes? Start on the C you have an Ionian mode. Start on D and you have a dorian mode and so on.
Key signatures? You see 2 # at the start of a piece-D major, because the scale contains an F# and C#.
Minor scales? Relative minor scales are based off the 6th of the major scale.

Too many people say that they know their scales when all they know is a fingering pattern. Move beyond that and actually learn the scales and you will gain so much more and have a solid grounding.

[geoham]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1411386223' post='2558919']

Scales are about knowing where the notes are in the chord and on the fretboard. Scales are about fluency and playing without having to plan where the next note is. Scales help muscle memory to make sure the right finger arrives at the right note without having to think about it.

[/quote]

^This is exactly what I get from scales. I play in two cover-bands, and have 100+ songs in my head, I don't play every single song verbatim! But knowing the chords of the song, along with the underlying scale - I can play something that sounds close enough - but most importantly sounds in tune.

Have a listen to 'Crazy Little Thing Called Love' by Queen. You'll hear a descending major scale twice in it. Knowing the scale made learning this much easier!

The best thing scales on the bass, is that you can learn a scale once and move it to any key you like. Start by learning a couple of variations on the major scale and play it in as many difference places on the next as you can.

Stick with it, it is dull, but once it's embedded in your brain, it [b]will[/b] make you a better player!

[Happy Jack]

And, of course, they help you to weigh things.

[ambient]

It's kind of like buying a really great book, and just reading the last chapter.

[Coilte]

Apart from one or two posts, little has been mentioned about [i]chord tones. [/i][size=4]Yes, scales are very important, but equally so are chord tones, as these are what the bassist plays most of the time. [/size][size=4]As Doddy mentioned, there is more to knowing scales than just the fingering or being able to play them from root to root all over the neck (though this a good place to start).[/size]

[size=4][u]Knowing[/u] scales involves knowing how chord tones are derived from them, and how to harmonise the major scale. [/size]
[size=4]OP, if you are content on being a human [/size]duke[size=4] box, just copying other people's lines, then you will get by with little or no theory. However, if you want to be able to make up your own bass lines, then knowing a little theory will go a long way towards [/size][size=4]enhancing both your knowledge, and in turn your enjoyment of music. [/size]

[size=4]Here is a link to a great web site (I think it was already mentioned). In this link it talks about the importance of chord tones,[/size][size=4]and how concentrating solely on scales without a knowledge of chord tones, can lead to the frustration you are now experiencing.[/size]
[size=4]Check out the link first, then go to the start and work your way slowly through the lessons.[/size]

[size=4][url="http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/"]http://www.studybass...es-are-primary/[/url][/size]

Edited September 22, 2014 by Coilte

[mingsta]

I'm in the same position of the OP...been playing covers for years and the band where we write our own stuff, I very slowly work out my lines by hearing them in my head and working out the fret positions.

I know that right now I'm more of a bass karaokeist than a fully fledged creative musician who can improvise on the fly or write really good bass lines. While learning theory isn't going to be a magic bullet, I'm starting to get to the point where I feel that I need to start learning theory in order to become a better musician.

The problem is, every time I've tried this in the past its failed miserably as it felt too much like doing homework and I quickly lost interest. Not sure what I'm going to do this time round to stay motivated...any suggestions from people who've been there would be welcome!!!

[ambient]

A couple of the guys I'm teaching at the moment are total, or were total novices.

They just accept that I'm teaching them scales, how scales are constructed, how chords are derived from scales, and dare I say........sight reading

[ezbass]

You may not solo and only play root notes, but occasionally you may want to add a fill or move to the next root note melodically. This is when it helps to know your scales. I know of a bass player who had a pet lick that he would use as a fill over many songs, the problem was is was a specific major fill which, when it was used over a minor progression, sounded plain wrong. Knowing scales can also help you work songs out. Struggling to hear that next chord in a new song? Your knowledge of scales will help you figure it out. If you just learn major, minor and dominant 7th scales it will help you no end and help you be more connected to what you're playing.

[JTUK]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1411386223' post='2558919']
You [i]are[/i] missing the point.

Scales are about knowing where the notes are in the chord and on the fretboard. Scales are about fluency and playing without having to plan where the next note is. Scales help muscle memory to make sure the right finger arrives at the right note without having to think about it.

Scales are boring but they have a very serious purpose. Of course you can do without them but you will be less of the player that you could have been.

At the end of the day, that might not matter in your playing environment. The choice is yours.
[/quote]

This........ and it helps in communication when playing songs as someone might throw a chord at you
and all you can do is play the root/octave because you don't know what else to play.
You could get by with a very good ear, up to a point, but largely you hamstring yourself and
you have to play the line note by note. This is playing by numbers and that gets very boring, IMO.

[Coilte]

[quote name='mingsta' timestamp='1411391925' post='2559002']
The problem is, every time I've tried this in the past its failed miserably as it felt too much like doing homework and I quickly lost interest. Not sure what I'm going to do this time round to stay motivated...any suggestions from people who've been there would be welcome!!!
[/quote]

No doubt that some homework is involved. That is not to say that you need to spend hours locked away, learning nothing but theory.
As little time as twenty five to thirty minutes a day, would be good to start. Any more than that for now would cause the brain to switch off, telling you..."too much information...!!!" [size=4] A little at a time but often (i.e. every day..as apart from three hours at weekends is the way to go).[/size]

A good teacher would be the best idea. Going through a tutorial book like "The Complete Bass Method" book (see link below) under the guidance of a teacher would IMO pay dividends in the long run. Nothing like a good teacher for keeping you motivated. Even half a dozen lessons would be well worth the time, money and effort.

http://www.amazon.com/Leonard-Bass-Method-Easy-Use/dp/0793563836

Hope this gives food for thought. [size=4] [/size]

[Marvin]

Scales are essential for fish, therefore bass.


I know, it's not even remotely amusing. It is Monday.

[ezbass]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1411395366' post='2559065']
Scales are essential for fish, therefore bass.


I know, it's not even remotely amusing. It is Monday.
[/quote]I disagree, it made me smile.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='ezbass' timestamp='1411394003' post='2559038']
I know of a bass player who had a pet lick that he would use as a fill over many songs, the problem was is was a specific major fill which, when it was used over a minor progression, sounded plain wrong.
[/quote]

That's actually a far more persuasive argument, especially to those of us whose playing has "plateau'd".

I have a (depressingly small) arsenal of licks I can drop into a bassline, and I've always wanted to be able to chuck new stuff in on the fly - yes, but what if it doesn't fit?

[Marvin]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1411396092' post='2559079']


That's actually a far more persuasive argument, especially to those of us whose playing has "plateau'd".

I have a (depressingly small) arsenal of licks I can drop into a bassline, and I've always wanted to be able to chuck new stuff in on the fly - yes, but what if it doesn't fit?
[/quote]

Quickly slide up, very quickly, to the root, works a treat

[Happy Jack]

The biggest debt I owe to Victor Wooten ... "you're never more than one fret away from a 'right note'".

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1411396982' post='2559090']
Quickly slide up, very quickly, to the root, works a treat
[/quote]
[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1411396092' post='2559079']
That's actually a far more persuasive argument, especially to those of us whose playing has "plateau'd".

I have a (depressingly small) arsenal of licks I can drop into a bassline, and I've always wanted to be able to chuck new stuff in on the fly - yes, but what if it doesn't fit?
[/quote]

Or say it was a just a chromatic jazzy passing note you were playing

[Marvin]

... and being serious for a moment. Although my scale/theory knowledge is limited, I do find that songs make more sense if I can relate some theory to them... and you start to understand why certain note choices sound more appropriate than others.

[Dad3353]

+1 for the Complete Hal Leonard Bass Method. Here's the Amazon link to the second-hand ones, shipped from UK. Can't beat that for value...

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0793563836/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used"]Complete Bass Method...[/url]

I've a lot of bass and music theory books; this is one of the very good ones. Recommended.