Perception of 'Loud'

[Guest MoJo]

I've been playing for the past thirty odd years and, like many forum members, have had many different rigs over the years. I currently play through a Hughes and Kettner Quantum 600 into a Schroeder 21015 (1000w @ 4ohms) yet, I wouldn't describe this rig as 'loud'. It can hold it's own against two apparently deaf, half-stack equipped, guitarists yet, I've never thought of it as a loud rig.

Quite often, in ads, I see comments such as "I had one of these and they were stupidly loud" (Roland Cube 60) and I know that some folks have described the old USA Peavey TNT150 as 'loud'. I had one, I wouldn't say it was loud. You wouldn't want it on full tilt in your living room but it's just about adequate for a pub gig.

Maybe it's me but a loud rig should be barely ticking over at a pub gig and I've yet to experience that.

[chris_b]

+1.

I just don't believe comments such as,[i] my 112 can keep up with a hard hitting drummer[/i]!

Sorry but that isn't "[i]hard hitting[/i]".

Some of the guys I play with are loud. Sometimes I play with Steve Dixon, ex Gary Moore and he is [b][i]loud[/i][/b].

To the point that a 212 wouldn't even keep up with him.

That's why I have an 800watt 312 rig to use with those guys.

Edited June 14, 2013 by chris_b

[peteb]

I once borrowed a Hughes and Kettner 600w bass amp and it was not particularly loud, certainly nowhere near as loud as the 350w amp that I had at the time. There is absolutely no consistency in the power ratings claimed by various manufacturers!

How you perceive loud is a funny thing anyway – people will happily withstand a fair amount of volume but as soon as something starts to clip or distort where it shouldn’t, it will immediately be perceived as being too loud…

[Lozz196]

To me, loud is when I can turn up a rig to the point that no matter what the drummer is doing, it painfully drowns them out.

That said, luckily I don`t play in bands with drummers who use mallets as sticks anymore, so most of my recent rigs have been capable of doing this.

[Bolo]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1371203465' post='2111094']
I once borrowed a Hughes and Kettner 600w bass amp and it was not particularly loud, certainly nowhere near as loud as the 350w amp that I had at the time. There is absolutely no consistency in the power ratings claimed by various manufacturers!
[/quote]

This I would credit to the cabs used. Put that head on a different cab and you will have a completely different experience.

Loudness is a personal experience also. What frequencies are perceived loudest by your ears? Cranking noise at those frequencies alone will change what you feel from 'lively' to 'racket'.

[bonzodog]

I gave up looking at number of watts a manufacturer states a long time ago. The only way to measure loudness is by the decibels. Plus there are a huge amount of other factors that can affect loudness at gigs - strings / pickups / room size / room shape / number of people in the room / loudness of people in the room / where the amp is positioned. Very often people who claim to have a 'loud' amp have only played it at home or in an empty room

[peteb]

[quote name='Bolo' timestamp='1371204417' post='2111115']
This I would credit to the cabs used. Put that head on a different cab and you will have a completely different experience.
[/quote]I was using the same cabs

[51m0n]

To measure loudness in dB across the spectrum, you need an RTA or Spectrum Analyser.

Even a dB meter doesnt tell you the whole story, since it measures at a particular freuqncy, which is generally not where basses are doing there thing.

Its utterly irrelevant what wattage the amp is stated to produce, or what it really does, or what the sensitivity is stated (hint, its almost certainly overinflated nonsense).

There is also the room you are in, and where in the room you a measuring (due to additive and subtractive nodes).

So how can you tell if you rig is loud enough - short answer go try it out in a gig. If you can hear yourself, its loud enough, if you can hear it and it swamps the mix for the audience, then your eq is not helping you much, or the room isnt it. Who knows?

[Wil]

I used to use a Schroeder 410L with a 1000 watt Crown poweramp. That was pretty damn loud. Probably the only amp setup I've had I'd describe that way. My old AC30 for guitaring was loud, but not pretty damn loud.

Put more watts into that 21015 and I reckon it'll strip paint.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Wil

[Beer of the Bass]

The other thing that seems to affect players perception of whether a given amp is "loud" or not is the taper of the volume control. I think makers do it deliberately, in the hope that less experienced players will turn it up to 9 o'clock in the shop and think "Man, that's loud, I've still got three quarters of the knob left" and buy the amp. Never mind that it probably starts clipping just past that...

[gjones]

My amp (MiBass 550 going through a 450watt 4 ohm 1x15) is loud enough in most situations where my bass isn't going through a PA. If it wasn't loud enough to keep up with any band I was playing with, then frankly the band would be playing far too loud.

Edited June 14, 2013 by gjones

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='MoJo' timestamp='1371202313' post='2111075']
I wouldn't describe this rig as 'loud'. It can hold it's own against two apparently deaf, half-stack equipped, guitarists....
[/quote]

You too huh ?!

[4-string-thing]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1371207822' post='2111162']
The other thing that seems to affect players perception of whether a given amp is "loud" or not is the taper of the volume control. I think makers do it deliberately, in the hope that less experienced players will turn it up to 9 o'clock in the shop and think "Man, that's loud, I've still got three quarters of the knob left" and buy the amp. Never mind that it probably starts clipping just past that...
[/quote]Ha Ha, that's my old Acoustic 220, full volume seems to be at 9 o' clock, its pretty loud but anything over that and it doesn't seem to do much apart from add a bit of distortion (apparently, its supposed to be like that) Its only 170w but is actually about the same in terms of volume (loudness) as my 575w Ashdown into the same cab.

[tonyquipment]

To me loud is when you can feel your organs shaking and eyeballs trembling.

I had that when I was playing through my trace Elliot stack. 1x15 300w + 4x10 300w chained together. Now if I DI'd that as well ...

[Guest MoJo]

[quote name='tonyquipment' timestamp='1371208824' post='2111186']
To me loud is when you can feel your organs shaking and eyeballs trembling.

I had that when I was playing through my trace Elliot stack. 1x15 300w + 4x10 300w chained together. Now if I DI'd that as well ...
[/quote]

Sounds like the rig for me

[skoze]

I thought i knew what loud was 'til i got on the rail at a Motorhead gig. That is not a safe place for a Fred Perry-wearing indie kid.

Loud is relative, but i think that with a bass it comes down to feeling, like Mr. Equipment said. If you can feel it booming behind you, it's doing the business. We're always DI'd but our guitarist has his few-hundred-watt Fender cranked regardless. Coupled with all manner of screeching pedals, that's a different kind of loud; it's so trebly it pierces your ears and is just horrible to endure.

Edited June 14, 2013 by skoze

[TimR]

Flecher Munson:

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves[/url]

A 1x10" can easily sound much louder than a 2x12". But do you want it to 'sound loud' or do you want it to fit in with what the music is doing?

[BigRedX]

IME the biggest contribution to the perception of "loud" is the acoustic space that you put the rig in.

[MrRatty]

[quote name='skoze' timestamp='1371209451' post='2111200']
I thought i knew what loud was 'til i got on the rail at a Motorhead gig.
[/quote]

+1 I remember seeing Motorhead in the 70s and it's still the loudest gig I've been to. My ears were filled with cotton wool (did they make earplugs then?) and it was still louder than anybody else I've seen.

+1 to the comments about the effect of the room as well. I've played gigs with the same band in rooms which seem pretty similar but have had to increase or decrease my volume to achieve a balance. I'm pretty sure the drummer was his usual self too!

[Guest MoJo]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1371210877' post='2111223']
Flecher Munson:

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves"]http://en.wikipedia....93Munson_curves[/url]

A 1x10" can easily sound much louder than a 2x12". But do you want it to 'sound loud' or do you want it to fit in with what the music is doing?
[/quote]

What I find is that to get to a comfortable level where the bass is sitting nicely under the guitars and balanced to the drums, the master control on my head is on '5'. Turning up beyond that produces little more in the way of volume. I was kind of expecting my master to be on 2 or 3 leaving me plenty of headroom. Despite the H&K head claiming to be 600w and the Schroeder claiming to be very efficient, I seem to be driving the amp quite hard just to get to gig level where I thought I'd just be tickling it.

[Geddys nose]

I owned this cab for a little while and it was the loudest cab I ever owned with a Mesa 400+, if anything the 15 speaker projected too far forward so if you where stood in front of it it did not seem very loud but 4-5 metres it was killing the audience.

We played one venue and the landlady said her bedside table upstairs was moving forward when the bass was played! Never had this with a Mesa 4x12, Ampeg Fridge, Barefaced Vintage!

[BobVbass]

my Hartke and Barefaced stack ticks over at about 3 or 4 during most gigs (medium sized halls etc) the few times I've a cranked it (and not to full volume as it was seriously hurting my ears) it manged to drown out a keyboardist and guitarist and had the drummer shaking his head and miming "too much"

[Lozz196]

[quote name='MoJo' timestamp='1371211778' post='2111242']
What I find is that to get to a comfortable level where the bass is sitting nicely under the guitars and balanced to the drums, the master control on my head is on '5'. Turning up beyond that produces little more in the way of volume. I was kind of expecting my master to be on 2 or 3 leaving me plenty of headroom. Despite the H&K head claiming to be 600w and the Schroeder claiming to be very efficient, I seem to be driving the amp quite hard just to get to gig level where I thought I'd just be tickling it.
[/quote]

Having had the slightly smaller 21012 Schroeder, with my GK MB Fusion, I couldn`t go above 3 on master volume. I don`t know much about the H&K amps, but something doesn`t seem right there, though maybe the volume control is more even all the way round, and my GK peaked early? The Schroeders are the most efficient cabs I`ve used to date - bucket-loads louder than any other cabs I`ve hooked the same amps up to.

[Guest MoJo]

[quote name='bob_pickard' timestamp='1371217549' post='2111328']
my Hartke and Barefaced stack ticks over at about 3 or 4 during most gigs (medium sized halls etc) the few times I've a cranked it (and not to full volume as it was seriously hurting my ears) it manged to drown out a keyboardist and guitarist and had the drummer shaking his head and miming "too much"
[/quote]

[iconic]

[quote name='skoze' timestamp='1371209451' post='2111200']
I thought i knew what loud was 'til i got on the rail at a Motorhead gig. That is not a safe place for a Fred Perry-wearing indie kid.
[/quote]

I thought I knew what was loud until my first 'DJ Froggy' (RIP) moment when I really in to jazzfunk - for those of a younger age this will mean bugger all as would Radio London and Robbie Vincent on a Saturday - ....Froggies opening track at that night, thru his own rig was this Young and Company classic....& Buddy Hankerson's bassline made me think I had eaten something that had erm 'disagreed' with me, it hit my guts that much

Allegedly there were 2500 watts pumping out that night in a room where 300 odd people were crushed together (his bgig rig wss 12000 watts!)....it was so loud I'm sure I could of sued for ear damage nowadays, my ears rung like tuning forks for days after that night.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNAraz3jdSY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNAraz3jdSY[/url]

Edited June 14, 2013 by iconic