lowballing .. definition and .. is it insulting ?

[hamfist]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1354796951' post='1890445']
I wasn't going to say any more on the subject, but the overriding feeling I'm getting from this thread is that I'm somehow wrong for wishing to sell items in a way that's comfortable for me and I feel compelled to clarify my position.

I list it for sale. If it doesn't sell for a while then I'll take down the price a bit or I'll keep the item. But I'll decide when that happens. It's still my item, it's still my sale. It's on sale for what it's worth to me, informed by having done some research into recent sales etc.. If that's not compatible with the market's opinion of what the item is worth (and I'm capable of counting my own tumbleweed, thanks) then I'll deal with it in my own way.

What's wrong with that? Not everyone's up for a bit of wheeling and dealing, not everyone is comfortable with it. OK, maybe I'm a bit of a control freak, but I'm not an ogre, I'm not an unreasonable person, nor am I difficult to deal with, as my feedback thread will attest to. I've clearly managed to sell stuff using this approach at mutually agreeable prices.

Given all the above, low offers bug me when I've put the effort in to price things reasonably to begin with. It's irritating, that's all. Usually I will reply with a reiteration of the price and its firmness, sometimes citing the research that has led me to the amount I am asking for. Often this is accepted with good grace and we continue from there. There may be varying degrees of detectable irritability in this communication, and I apologise for any I have communicated, and for any I will communicate in the future.
[/quote]

And I'd be surprised if anyone thinks you are unreasonable in this, as long as you state "firm price, no offers" in your advert (which, of course, I'm sure you do). I would expect anyone stating those things in an advert to completely ignore any approaches for a cheaper price. If it were me I would.
However, the people I do struggle with are those who are rather rude and self-righteous in response to a genuine offer, lower than their advertised price, having made no statements that the price is non-negotiable. It is absolutely standard practice to haggle a bit in used sales of virtually anything in our culture unless, and only unless, the seller states "absolutely no offers".

[Zenitram]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1354796951' post='1890445']
mutually agreeable prices[/quote]

These are the only prices at which things get sold.

[Conan]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1354796951' post='1890445']
Not everyone's up for a bit of wheeling and dealing, not everyone is comfortable with it. OK, maybe I'm a bit of a control freak, but I'm not an ogre, I'm not an unreasonable person, nor am I difficult to deal with, as my feedback thread will attest to. I've clearly managed to sell stuff using this approach at mutually agreeable prices.[/quote]

Absolutely! I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you - just stating why they find your position strange. If I saw an item that I was a bit interested in, that had been for sale for several months and had no real interest, I don't see the problem with making what I regard as a sensible offer. After all, there is probably a reason why it has attracted so little attention!

People sell things for different reasons. Some people are just happy to get shot of something and will often sell for less than their originally advertised price. Others are selling to make money on an item that they bought as an investment, so obviously they will be less keen to sell at a lower price. Horses for courses.

If someone clearly stated on their thread that they were looking for a firm price with no haggling, I would either pay them the asking price or walk on by. But surely as a seller you would accept a few quid less than your asking price rather than not make a sale at all? That just seems sensible to me... but everyone is different. I usually end up selling stuff for less than my original asking price, but that's my choice.

[Cairobill]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1354711904' post='1889404']
If the last 5 that have sold have gone at £550/£600, you are doing yourself no favours putting it out at £750/£800.
I am putting up my Schroeder in the new year (incoming Barefaced). The last two failed to sell at £550 and £500. Mine will go out at £450 including cover.
Market decides.
Karl.
[/quote]

Agree with this. If I really want to sell I will look at the market and price under to shift things (as I did with a stingray at £450 and a Zon at £1000). If I am not so desperate to sell I will price steeper. The key thing is, I do not have ambitions on making money out of selling basses, I just need to satisfy the demands of what I am doing at the time (which usually means a quick, cheap sale) or turn a little used bass into cash (which translates as a slower, more expensive sale).

I don't give two balls what other people think as it's entirely up to me what I do with my basses. If someone wants to lowball me, go right ahead! I will either go yes if I'm keen to make cash quickly and lose a bit or no if I have no urgency to sell. No offence taken.

My stuff is all priced reasonably after a good bit of research though as I know exactly where my basses stand in the gas-ability spectrum

[Cairobill]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1354733767' post='1889825']

The thing that annoys me is when someone states in an ad how much they paid for it and they want
to get that back. That is a sure way for me to offer a lower price.
[/quote]

Although in a second hand market, second hand is second hand so there shouldn't necessarily be a price drop if it changes hands unless it's been trashed in some way. If that happened again and again, an instrument will eventually be worth next to nothing, like a car. And as we all know basses are better than cars

That's what I love about basschat, it's a great community for basses to pass through many hands with basses eventually finding their 'keeper' and dropping out of circulation. It's sort of Zen

[risingson]

Probably have been 'lowballed' once or twice during my time selling on this site, I just work on the principle that I can easily decline these kinds of offers without taking too much offence and just keep on holding out for the person that's willing to pay a little closer to what I'm looking for. It's better to be aware that this is the Internet, people will act like they're not talking to you person to person. Just IMO.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='XB26354' timestamp='1354795073' post='1890411']
It depends on the definition of lowballing. There are plenty of people on here that advertise on the high side with no offers. Unsurprisingly their thread becomes a desert of no activity.
[/quote]

. . . or one of constant bumping but nothing else.

[Conan]

[quote name='Cairobill' timestamp='1354803971' post='1890606']
It's sort of Zen
[/quote]

Especially if it's a Zon...

[bigjohn]

Someone offers less that you want. You can decline it. The offer is their risk, not yours. I don't understand people complaining or feeling insulted or annoyance at the sheer thought of a haggle. If you're selling something, that's the deal. That's the way it is. If you sell stuff, someone eventually is going to offer you less than you want for it. Get over it. Or don't sell stuff. If you're really incapable of entering into a conversation on price, then maybe put "strictly no offers" in the advert (for simple courtesy) then don't reply to offers. Or deal with it however you like, I don't care really but getting annoyed or feeling insulted by someone offering you an exchange (be it cash, sex or magic beans) for something you want rid of is pretty strange behaviour in my book! Doing nobody any favours, especially yourselves.

Edited December 6, 2012 by bigjohn

[geoham]

I was on holiday with the lads a few years back. We were enjoying a meal and a 'Looky looky' man tried to sell us some sunglasses. My friend saw a pair of imitation Armanis (or something like that!), and asked how much they were. The bloke said €120. My mate offered him €5. Bit of haggling and he ended up paying €10 for them.

Was this a cultural thing, or was the sunglasses vendor just a chancer? Anyway, my point is - if you think something is overpriced, then I personally see no problem negotiating. If someone makes you a 'low-ball' offer - either politely decline or negotiate. If someone takes offence and you've acted reasonably, then that really is their problem!

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='bigjohn' timestamp='1354809800' post='1890691']
Someone offers less that you want. You can decline it. The offer is their risk, not yours. I don't understand people complaining or feeling insulted or annoyance at the sheer thought of a haggle. If you're selling something, that's the deal. That's the way it is. If you sell stuff, someone eventually is going to offer you less than you want for it. Get over it. Or don't sell stuff. If you're really incapable of entering into a conversation on price, then maybe put "strictly no offers" in the advert (for simple courtesy) then don't reply to offers. Or deal with it however you like, I don't care really but getting annoyed or feeling insulted by someone offering you an exchange (be it cash, sex or magic beans) for something you want rid of is pretty strange behaviour in my book! Doing nobody any favours, especially yourselves.
[/quote]

+1.

I cannot comprehend how anyone could be "offended" or "upset" by a politely worded PM offering less than they're asking for. Just say no. Its no more socially awkward than someone saying "would you like a cup of tea?" and replying "no thanks". Its just not a big deal.

Fair enough get a bit annoyed if your ad says "Firm price" or "no offers, please" but if it doesn't then just deal with it like an adult with functional social skills and move on.

[XB26354]

Of course, the market here has a lot of basses for sale, so if you're selling a common bass, especially if there are others for sale at the same time, if you advertise it at a price way more than comparable recent sales and what's currently out there you're likely to get no interest or lowballing. It becomes more difficult when an item is less well known or the used price fluctuates a lot. Warwick is a classic example. Their (German made) basses retail at very high prices but the used market doesn't reflect that. You can pick up a Corvette for £300 but some have been advertised and sold on here for £500.
This isn't usually a problem, but a lot of makers have been massively hiking the price on new instruments. From Fender, EBMM and Ibanez to Dingwall, Roscoe and Sadowsky, prices have rocketed in the last few years. It's partly exchange rates, partly cost of manufacture and a bit of raw material costs, but the end product is no better, just pricier. That's why the marketplace here has so much for sale!

[BassTractor]

There seems to be a shared understanding by some that getting annoyed by lowballing is exactly the same as getting annoyed by a politely written PM with a lower offer.
Surely, this must only be true in extreme cases.

Normally though, my guess is the getting annoyed bit has a reason - good or bad. For example:
- a cheeky offer with a way unrealistic price
- a low price offer sent by a person who doesn't give a sh*t about other people, and shows it.
- that same person demanding that his own needs are taken care of minutely.
etc, etc.

I think it's often caring people going through a difficult phase who get annoyed, or idealists who get offended by the very thought that others would behave these ways.
Cynics and idealists are never going to understand each other.


FWIW, I personally got offended when someone here recently tried to sell his desert gold Bongo way too cheaply, and still got offers clearly below that, and I've proven through decades that I can keep a bizniz running well - despite lowballers and people behaving badly.
But for me what get to me is the very thought that people will praise the community feel of BC in one sentence, and will lowball in the next.

Yes, I'm an idiot and an idealist.


best,
bert

[Dad3353]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1354819848' post='1890893']...Yes, I'm an idiot and an idealist...[/quote]

Well said; I agree with every word (well, all except the idealist bit...).



([i]Just kidding, Bert[/i]... )

Edited December 6, 2012 by Dad3353

[mcnach]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1354812963' post='1890771']
+1.

I cannot comprehend how anyone could be "offended" or "upset" by a politely worded PM offering less than they're asking for. Just say no. Its no more socially awkward than someone saying "would you like a cup of tea?" and replying "no thanks". Its just not a big deal.

Fair enough get a bit annoyed if your ad says "Firm price" or "no offers, please" but if it doesn't then just deal with it like an adult with functional social skills and move on.
[/quote]

there's a variety of "lowballers" that do get annoying 'though.

a while back, around the time I sold you that black Vintage Jazz bass (now back with me, thanks! ) I was selling quite a lot of things: guitars, basses, effects... I advertised them all on Gumtree. I received emails from the same person for just about every single item, offering 50% of my asking price trying to entice me by saying they would collect on the day.
After I replied to three of his emails I just got bored. There was one particular item he seemed to want, and he kept insisting, always offering 50% and starting to become a little offensive, not just pushy.

what was he thinking?

Clearly someone with too much time in his hands trying his luck at anything.

[BassTractor]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1354820129' post='1890900']
Well said; I agree with every word (well, all except the idealist bit...).
[/quote]

Don't leave me hanging here, Dad! Who am I really?
An idiot and a ..... ???

[Zenitram]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1354819848' post='1890893']
I personally got offended when someone here recently tried to sell his desert gold Bongo way too cheaply, and still got offers clearly below that[/quote]

Why did this offend you?

Edited December 6, 2012 by Zenitram

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Zenitram' timestamp='1354820806' post='1890915']
Why did this offend you?
[/quote]

Because it probably devalued his own. or he likes his that much that he would pay market price gladly any day. probably a hundred different things.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1354820524' post='1890909']...Who am I really?
An idiot and a ..... ???

[/quote]

...glutton for punishment..?

[skej21]

It annoys me when you say 'no trades' and then someone wastes your time with PMs that say 'I'll swap your £400 bass for my £1500 with you giving me £1100 cash'... Erm, no!

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1354821680' post='1890942']
It annoys me when you say 'no trades' and then someone wastes your time with PMs that say 'I'll swap your £400 bass for my £1500 with you giving me £1100 cash'... Erm, no!
[/quote]

Who does that anyway? never even heard of one of these. lol. i thought the point of a sale was 1.to raise cash. 2. To make room. 3. To upgrade. I mean seriously, if you say no trades, i would assume it's either 1 or 2. That guy would be a full on chancer who can't be bothered even to create an ad to sell his bass.

[redstriper]

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1354822233' post='1890958']

[/quote]

Well f***, if stephen fry has said it... i guess that shuts us all up.

The offended person is a whiner.

[karlfer]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1354821680' post='1890942']
It annoys me when you say 'no trades' and then someone wastes your time with PMs that say 'I'll swap your £400 bass for my £1500 with you giving me £1100 cash'... Erm, no!
[/quote]
[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1354821920' post='1890947']
Who does that anyway? never even heard of one of these. lol. i thought the point of a sale was 1.to raise cash. 2. To make room. 3. To upgrade. I mean seriously, if you say no trades, i would assume it's either 1 or 2. That guy would be a full on chancer who can't be bothered even to create an ad to sell his bass.
[/quote]

That exact same thing happened with me last week when I had my Precision Deluxe/Status up for sale for a short time. Their bass advertised at £1399, mine at £600. I would have had to find about £830
Mine was only up for sale to grab the afore mentioned Desert Gold Bongo, which I missed out on.
Karl.

Edited December 6, 2012 by karlfer

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1354820239' post='1890902']
there's a variety of "lowballers" that do get annoying 'though.

a while back, around the time I sold you that black Vintage Jazz bass (now back with me, thanks! ) I was selling quite a lot of things: guitars, basses, effects... I advertised them all on Gumtree. I received emails from the same person for just about every single item, offering 50% of my asking price trying to entice me by saying they would collect on the day.
After I replied to three of his emails I just got bored. There was one particular item he seemed to want, and he kept insisting, always offering 50% and starting to become a little offensive, not just pushy.

what was he thinking?

Clearly someone with too much time in his hands trying his luck at anything.
[/quote]

Yes, that would be annoying---but more annoying because of the persistant rudeness rather than the lower offer though, right?