rogerstodge Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 [quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1346597951' post='1790989'] Agree, good venue - will be there on 29th to see you guys -are you playing this time, and not Glam-Rock Glen? [/quote]i think its me, he just does the fridays Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted September 2, 2012 Author Share Posted September 2, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1346604627' post='1791101'] Then maybe you should consider giving them something worth coming inside and looking at? Otherwise you might as well just stick on an iPod. [/quote] Hmmm. Just had a look at your site and videos and stuff. Very good. I agree that being unique and putting on a real show is one way of attracting repeat bookings. Looks like a lot of effort has gone into your act - not just the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1346604236' post='1791092'] I would have thought that it would be in any band's interest to do as much promotion as possible irrespective of whether the venue/promoter/booking agent had done any. These days it's quick, cheap and easy to use social media to get the word out that you are playing. Even a thread in the gigs forum here could bring a couple of extra faces in the audience. [/quote] this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 I don't think it's just about bands. I went out in town last Saturday for the first time in ages and pretty much every pub was dead. A couple of places had bands on-one had a mini 'festival' in a marquee and was actually busier in the pub than in the tent,and the other was pretty empty. I just don't think that people are going out to pubs as much as they were a few years ago,as evident by the number of pubs that keep shutting down. Having said that,I haven't done many pubs or clubs for a few years now,but I played at a bar in Chester 2 weeks ago and it sold out within 10 minutes of the doors opening-they were literally turning people away all night long... and it was £7 to get in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1346634700' post='1791466'] .... and it was £7 to get in! [/quote] There's your reason right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fumps Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 I have to echo the reasons above. I'm now on the other side of the stage as a pub going punter (I'm not in a band any more) And the smoking ban has made the pub visit a very different experience. I smoke so when we arrive at the pub we all go inside get a beer & come straight back out. We then stay out there during our time at the pub, we have a wooden structure with heating & lights out there so no need to be indoors. Most of the time you can kind of hear that there is someone playing live but you forget who it is, then because of the price of the beer in the pub we then stay at the pub for a few then wonder back up to either a mates of they come to ours stopping off at the off licence on the way home, to catch the offie you have to leave early anyway.. I used to go out & stay in the pub all night watching the bands & having a great laugh, we would stay out till closing time & then maybe go off to either a club or back to someone's house to continue the night. I only watch live bands now at beer festivals or local music festivals. It's a shame that these changes (Smoking ban & stupidly expensive beer prices) have made people simply not bother either going out or not even enter the pub you are at. I know the smoking ban was a popular move for various pubs & clubs but the back lash is stronger than people expected. I know a few people who don't go to pubs at all now by choice. People who now play in bands are unfortunately casualties of these changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenochrome Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 We played one of our regular venues on Saturday night and had our quietest night there ever. The pub had only put up one of the 4 posters we sent, and let a promoter put their poster right over the top of ours. The blackboard outside the pub didn't have us listed as is usually does. The pub hadn't cleared the stage area as per normal and when we were unloading the punters in there said they thought there was no band on. This was all very strange as though the pub knew it was going to be quiet and didn't make any effort - was it due to the Dr Who thing on the telly? BTW we got paid our usual (fairly generous) fee in full with no complaints at all and promises of rebookings as we'd played well ?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Landlords also know which weekends will be traditionally quiet. First few weekends after the new year before pay day. Last weekend of Summer holidays - people with kids getting ready for school, the shops were manic with last minute "my shoes are too small" and "forgot to get new shorts for PE" coupled with universities going back and holiday prices for people without kids dropping to somewhat less extortionate prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 You can't blame Dr Who, it was over by 8:15, i went straight out and saw a very very dull covers band murdering mediocre songs. It was not good, so I left the thing in the tent and went to the pub. Where I sat outside in the comfy heated shed thing, and smoked away. Next saturday my old band are playing there, i will be outside a lot then too, but may stick my head in a few times to see how they're doing. I have spent all week explaining to locals that I have left, but they still haven't updated the posters with my face on (I did with a pen, but the landlord told me off) Smoking ban keeps people outside. Shame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) Some random observations which draw no particular conclusion: * Even pubs with a rep for live music are struggling. Is live music on the way out as a form of public entertainment? * If pubs were full of happy drinkers they wouldn't need bands, live sports, curry nights, etc. Which suggests that many pubs - particularly the ones that aren't renowned for live music - will [i]not[/i] have a built-in audience. Therefore promotion is more important than it ever was. * Are pubs generally on the way out? Should we be exploring other venues for our gigs - e.g. shopping centres on a Saturday lunchtime, community centres? * Seemingly. covers bands are popular because they draw in a wider range of people than genre bands. But unlike genre bands (blues, jazz, punk, etc) there is no definable audience to whom one may appeal other than 'local people'. As a result, is one overly dependent on a small catchment area, with the increased risk of audience burn-out. * Covers bands are more likely to pull a walk-up audience. Quite a lot of people go to a particular pub for a drink, oblivious to the fact that a band's been booked. They may see the sign 'Live Music' and walk away. They may go in anyway in the hope that the band won't be too loud. We cannot assume that everyone in a pub audience came to see the band. They might all just be tolerating us out of politeness or laziness. * So should we be balancing the need to engage - loudness, dynamics, showmanship - with an awareness that we might need to dial it back a bit. How do we strike a balance between being an in-your-face spectacle or providing some background music? Should we massively dialling up our showmanship? Or should we just merge into the wallpaper and calmly collect the gig fee on the way out? * Could we be better at reading an audience as the gig progresses? Rather than rigidly sticking to the set-order, volume and speed, should we be more flexible in our delivery? Switching songs around, playing them faster / slower / louder / quieter? * Have too many punters been 'burned' by covers bands? Not just the incompetent ones, but the good ones with a limited setlist? Should a covers band have at least 100 songs under its belt so it can keep weekly performances fresh for pub regulars? * Should we keep a fake book onstage so we can say 'Yes' to requests, rather than sniff about 'not being a f***ing jukebox'? * Should we offer something else besides live music? e.g. competitions, 'live karaoke', a frontman who can tell decent jokes, a disco before and after the set? * If a venue is primarily seated, should we be accentuating melody (listening) rather than rhythm (dancing). What is good in a standing venue may be too overpowering in a seated venue? * Do bands for pubs require a different skill set / offering than those which are targeting a music-fan audience? Rather than approach pub gigs with the mindset of 'rock stars in the making', do we need a different toolkit? Should we think more like DJ's and pub guvnors? * Rather than acting as 'a band' with fixed personnel and fixed setlists, should we aim towards looser collectives with greater flexibility of material and personnel? Should it be the norm that 'bands' expand and contract to fit a range of gigs. Loud and big for some venues, small and quiet for others? Sorry about the large number of question marks, but I think we're at one of those turning points when things change and we have to develop some ideas so that we can continue to do what we enjoy doing. [color=#ffffff].[/color] Edited September 3, 2012 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fumps Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 I think the covers band is definitely not something I would not bother with, I was at the local pubs beer festival this year it's always good & a full weekend event, they have this great way of keeping the punters there all weekend, they simply sell bulk sale cheap beer (£5 for three cans of beer) which actually works !!! people can smoke because the event is outside & the stage is also outside, the lads who run it say the bands get so much more attention that everyone wins But I noticed this year that covers bands were really struggling to pull the people up to the stage, A guy played Mustang Sally & cleared the tent in the first few bars, it wasn't him being crap it as just the fact that it was the 12th time that song had been played in two days & the covers bands that played had repeated the same songs too many times. After a while it was mentioned to almost every band who went on "No Mustang sally & no Sex is on fire" ...some chose to ignore the advice & it back fired. If you are playing covers, listen to other bands.......if there set is exactly the same as yours think about being a punter.......it gets old very quickly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1346668599' post='1791623'] Some random observations which draw no particular conclusion: * Even pubs with a rep for live music are struggling. Is live music on the way out as a form of public entertainment? * If pubs were full of happy drinkers they wouldn't need bands, live sports, curry nights, etc. Which suggests that many pubs - particularly the ones that aren't renowned for live music - will [i]not[/i] have a built-in audience. Therefore promotion is more important than it ever was. * Are pubs generally on the way out? Should we be exploring other venues for our gigs - e.g. shopping centres on a Saturday lunchtime, community centres? * Seemingly. covers bands are popular because they draw in a wider range of people than genre bands. But unlike genre bands (blues, jazz, punk, etc) there is no definable audience to whom one may appeal other than 'local people'. As a result, is one overly dependent on a small catchment area, with the increased risk of audience burn-out. * Covers bands are more likely to pull a walk-up audience. Quite a lot of people go to a particular pub for a drink, oblivious to the fact that a band's been booked. They may see the sign 'Live Music' and walk away. They may go in anyway in the hope that the band won't be too loud. We cannot assume that everyone in a pub audience came to see the band. They might all just be tolerating us out of politeness or laziness. * So should we be balancing the need to engage - loudness, dynamics, showmanship - with an awareness that we might need to dial it back a bit. How do we strike a balance between being an in-your-face spectacle or providing some background music? Should we massively dialling up our showmanship? Or should we just merge into the wallpaper and calmly collect the gig fee on the way out? * Could we be better at reading an audience as the gig progresses? Rather than rigidly sticking to the set-order, volume and speed, should we be more flexible in our delivery? Switching songs around, playing them faster / slower / louder / quieter? * Have too many punters been 'burned' by covers bands? Not just the incompetent ones, but the good ones with a limited setlist? Should a covers band have at least 100 songs under its belt so it can keep weekly performances fresh for pub regulars? * Should we keep a fake book onstage so we can say 'Yes' to requests, rather than sniff about 'not being a f***ing jukebox'? * Should we offer something else besides live music? e.g. competitions, 'live karaoke', a frontman who can tell decent jokes, a disco before and after the set? * If a venue is primarily seated, should we be accentuating melody (listening) rather than rhythm (dancing). What is good in a standing venue may be too overpowering in a seated venue? * Do bands for pubs require a different skill set / offering than those which are targeting a music-fan audience? Rather than approach pub gigs with the mindset of 'rock stars in the making', do we need a different toolkit? Should we think more like DJ's and pub guvnors? * Rather than acting as 'a band' with fixed personnel and fixed setlists, should we aim towards looser collectives with greater flexibility of material and personnel? Should it be the norm that 'bands' expand and contract to fit a range of gigs. Loud and big for some venues, small and quiet for others? Sorry about the large number of question marks, but I think we're at one of those turning points when things change and we have to develop some ideas so that we can continue to do what we enjoy doing. [color=#ffffff].[/color] [/quote]we need answers skank, not more questions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 TBH I always thought that a "Pub Gig" was live music being performed at an establishment that serves alcoholic beverages to be consumed on the premises. However reading through this (and similar) threads it appears to have a much more specific meaning. I've been in bands for the last 30 years that have done gigs in a variety of venues some of which were pubs, but none of them appear to have been a "Pub Gig" in the way that some experiences are described. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacqueslemac Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Another question, but do the facts support the statement that pub gigs are drying up? From a purely personal perspective I can't ever remember a time when I had so much choice of pubs offering live music. When I was at drinking age (in my 20s, think 1980s) I could count the number of pub gigs in my area (I knew about, anyway) each weekend on one hand. Nowadays it seems like every pub has a blackboard up with a list of forthcoming bands on it. Also, I seem to be swimming against the flow here when I say that I would hate to play in a "smoking pub" if there was such a thing. Smokers were one of the things that kept me away from pubs. Maybe I should point out that I drink real ale, so you can't get the same choice/quality at an offie. And drinking at home seems a bit sad to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoombung Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Some surprising explanations for poor attendances here! Smoking ban? Price of beer? Be fussy about where you play. Don't play C&W in front of Rockers- check out the venue and the punters. Do a good job on Facebook and let everyone know when the gig is. Tell em what type of gig it is and include links to the music. Don't play loud! Dont put anything but vocals through the PA. You don't need to amplify bass drums, for instance. People hate loud gigs no matter what you might think. Finally feel free to say no if you suspect the gig isn't worth the effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 [quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1346685277' post='1791901']Be fussy.... Do a good job on Facebook... Don't play loud! People hate loud gigs.... ... say no if you suspect the gig isn't worth the effort. [/quote] Some good advice there (genre dependant possibly), but the key word is the last one. Make an effort. Word soon gets round when a band does things differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoombung Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1346685652' post='1791906'] Some good advice there (genre dependant possibly), but the key word is the last one. Make an effort. Word soon gets round when a band does things differently. [/quote] Agree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinynorman Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Some random answers which might draw some more discussion. [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1346668599' post='1791623'] Some random observations which draw no particular conclusion: * Even pubs with a rep for live music are struggling. Is live music on the way out as a form of public entertainment? [color=#0000cd]-> Maybe there's just too many outlets for live music and some of them just aren't offering what people want, even if they were successful in the past.[/color] * If pubs were full of happy drinkers they wouldn't need bands, live sports, curry nights, etc. Which suggests that many pubs - particularly the ones that aren't renowned for live music - will [i]not[/i] have a built-in audience. Therefore promotion is more important than it ever was. [color=#0000cd]-> Seems to me the successful pubs are the ones that create an atmosphere and a buzz that brings people back, whether it's the staff, the food, the good beer, the music, the quiz, the other events - probably you need all of these. If the landlord sits up one end of the bar talking to his three friends, leaving a couple of surly girls to pull pints all night, all the music and promotion in the world won't help.[/color] * Are pubs generally on the way out? Should we be exploring other venues for our gigs - e.g. shopping centres on a Saturday lunchtime, community centres? [color=#0000cd]-> I played a shopping centre once. Never. Again.[/color] * Seemingly. covers bands are popular because they draw in a wider range of people than genre bands. But unlike genre bands (blues, jazz, punk, etc) there is no definable audience to whom one may appeal other than 'local people'. As a result, is one overly dependent on a small catchment area, with the increased risk of audience burn-out. [color=#0000cd]-> So you need a rotation of regular places to play. Once every 3 months is enough for any pub, and then you need to vary the set.[/color] * Covers bands are more likely to pull a walk-up audience. Quite a lot of people go to a particular pub for a drink, oblivious to the fact that a band's been booked. They may see the sign 'Live Music' and walk away. They may go in anyway in the hope that the band won't be too loud. We cannot assume that everyone in a pub audience came to see the band. They might all just be tolerating us out of politeness or laziness. [color=#0000cd]-> Not much tolerance in my experience, there's too many other places to go. But you're right, not everyone comes to see the band. [/color] * So should we be balancing the need to engage - loudness, dynamics, showmanship - with an awareness that we might need to dial it back a bit. How do we strike a balance between being an in-your-face spectacle or providing some background music? Should we massively dialling up our showmanship? Or should we just merge into the wallpaper and calmly collect the gig fee on the way out? [color=#0000cd]-> Entirely depends on the venue and the band. Very few people can dial up showmanship convincingly. But it's no fun being ignored.[/color] * Could we be better at reading an audience as the gig progresses? Rather than rigidly sticking to the set-order, volume and speed, should we be more flexible in our delivery? Switching songs around, playing them faster / slower / louder / quieter? [color=#0000cd]-> Surely this can only come with experience, and in a pub gig you're trying to second guess so many likely reasons for losing an audience, I wonder if it's possible, except maybe by luck. Perhaps the best most of us can do is, if it appears to be working, keep doing it.[/color] * Have too many punters been 'burned' by covers bands? Not just the incompetent ones, but the good ones with a limited setlist? Should a covers band have at least 100 songs under its belt so it can keep weekly performances fresh for pub regulars? [color=#0000cd]-> See above, I wouldn't want to play the same pub, or even in the same area, every week. But yes, to do that you'd need a big set list. The number of people that have told us "you're the best band they've had in here for ages" suggests they don't get put off.[/color] * Should we keep a fake book onstage so we can say 'Yes' to requests, rather than sniff about 'not being a f***ing jukebox'? [color=#0000cd]-> It would be nice, but the reality is people ask for things I've never heard of. It's not sniffy, we can't play stuff we don't know. We wouldn't refuse to do something we know well enough to take a decent shot at.[/color] * Should we offer something else besides live music? e.g. competitions, 'live karaoke', a frontman who can tell decent jokes, a disco before and after the set? [color=#0000cd]-> Define decent jokes[/color] [color=#0000cd]We once played a club that had bingo between the sets. They insisted on total silence and got very upset if anyone even tried to order a drink. Awful.[/color] * If a venue is primarily seated, should we be accentuating melody (listening) rather than rhythm (dancing). What is good in a standing venue may be too overpowering in a seated venue? -[color=#0000cd]> Not many primarily seated pubs in my area, but it's a good point generally.[/color] * Do bands for pubs require a different skill set / offering than those which are targeting a music-fan audience? Rather than approach pub gigs with the mindset of 'rock stars in the making', do we need a different toolkit? Should we think more like DJ's and pub guvnors? [color=#0000cd]-> Yes, it probably is a different skill set and a big part of it is putting aside your own music likes, dislikes and prejudices and trying to provide a mix of material that includes as much of the likely audience as possible.[/color] * Rather than acting as 'a band' with fixed personnel and fixed setlists, should we aim towards looser collectives with greater flexibility of material and personnel? Should it be the norm that 'bands' expand and contract to fit a range of gigs. Loud and big for some venues, small and quiet for others? [color=#0000cd]-> I know a couple of bands that will do a 3-man acoustic set for a small pub and a full on band for a party. It seems to work, they're popular.[/color] Sorry about the large number of question marks, but I think we're at one of those turning points when things change and we have to develop some ideas so that we can continue to do what we enjoy doing. [color=#0000cd]-> Apology accepted [/color] [color=#ffffff].[/color] [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 [quote name='spinynorman' timestamp='1346689390' post='1791964'] Some random answers which might draw some more discussion. [/quote] Nice work, Sir. Thanks for ploughing through my rambling post. It just poured out of my head all at once Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Not sure if this aspect has been covered so far; in my locale this Saturday there will at least two pubs with kareoke, one club with an Elvis tribute, one pub with a very good & popular local covers blues-band and a live gig by a semi-name act in a small theatre. There is also a real-ale pub, a boozers pub, a couple of wine-bars & three or four social clubs with "a turn on". The whole town's population is only 30,000; maybe there just aren't enough punters to go around sometimes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Some good points from both Skank & Norman but a lot of the problem is that there are too many venues putting on live music that really shouldn’t and way too many bands playing in them that really are not good enough to gig! But it’s not all bad news. I’ve just had a weekend off and saw four bands in three nights. The gig on Friday night wasn’t particularly well attended (first time that the band had played that pub, and there was a big music festival in the next town) but by no means empty. The two gigs on Saturday night (a 5 minute walk apart) started off a bit quiet but were pretty full by 10 o’clock and packed by closing time. The gig on Sunday teatime was packed to the rafters! When it comes down to it, four good (or at least entertaining) bands all managed to pull an audience! If a band is any good and are prepared to put in the work to build a following then they can still do OK playing pubs. But you cannot ignore the fact that we are in the middle of the worst recession for 80 years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 So are we now blaming the relaxation of performance licensing for a glut of places to perform and too much opportunity? So now really is the chance for good bands to start to charge decent rates? If i can keep an audience of 100 people in a pub why should I play the Coach and Horses for £200 when the White Lion will pay me £250. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1346697544' post='1792089'] So are we now blaming the relaxation of performance licensing for a glut of places to perform and too much opportunity? [/quote] The point is that many pubs are starting to put on bands when they are too small, have noise issues or otherwise not set up for live music. If punters are used to seeing good bands in pubs that are rasonable venues then they are more likely to keep coming back..... Also, in your scenario that audience of 100 will be split between the two venues, meaning two gigs with little or no atmosphere rather than 100 people in one pub with a great atmosphere! Edited September 3, 2012 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassninja Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 This feels like a bit of a rant, for which apols in advance... We had played a lovely country boozer near Chichester regularly for about 13 years and had some amazing gigs there, got to know the regulars and all that, bailed them out when flaky bands had cancelled at short notice and so on. Over time, three bands that most of us were associated with gigged there on average once a month each. People would travel to see us and it was smiles all round. On August Bank Holiday 2011 we organized five quality acts at no cost and provided the PA and everything to do with the music for free, partly as a thanks to the pub for all the above but mainly as a fundraiser for the very worthy MacMillan Cancer Relief charity. Then one night about a year ago we were approached by an embarrassed bar manager and asked not to play the second set, even though there were half a dozen people there; not many but they'd all come to see us. It seems the owner had weighed up the likely income from a few pints and a couple of packets of crisps against the cost of keeping the pub open, and had decided to shut early. 'No prob' we said, of course you'll still pay us our fee though? Errr....no. Half gig half fee. We took exception to this, and asked to speak to the manager during the break. She wouldn't come downstairs, so we discussed it on the phone and were informed that future gigs couldn't be guaranteed if we insisted on full fee. We understood her position vis-a-vis running a business, but tried to explain that mid-gig is not a reasonable time to renegotiate a long-standing agreement. We tried to explain, by way of a parallel, that it would not be reasonable for us to order a sumptuous roast from her lovely kitchen and refuse to pay full price if we decided not to eat the beef because we were full up on Yorkshire pudding. On the basis that kneeling down is better than bending over we insisted on finishing the gig and taking the full fee. We were also pretty angry. The MU were not interested, of course. Result: she cancelled all the gigs for all three bands for the entire year without informing anyone until a colleague turned up to find another band already loaded in. We've never been back. Moral: consider offers of gigs from The Fox Goes Free, Charlton, near Chichester, West Sussex very carefully. Phew. That's better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 [quote name='bassninja' timestamp='1346785543' post='1793278'] This feels like a bit of a rant, for which apols in advance...[/quote] You're right - it was - but kudos for naming & shaming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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