charic Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 [quote name='TomRichards' timestamp='1343601143' post='1752674'] I don't lump all players in this category, as the majority are good citizens. I have experienced, of late, that there is a rising lot that are starting this trend. There is a difference in endorsement levels, but the statement that we in the industry look the other way for the big guys is actually the opposite. Yes, I did a little rant here, but when I was active as a player in the 70's thru the 90's most of us were very respectful of our endorsers, and endorsements were very hard to come by. This recent crew has just been more blatant then I've ever seen. If your deal is exclusive, and I give you several basses and spend oodles of time working on them to get them to your liking, and I also provide you with tour support, you better be using my stuff. Ok, I'll chime out now. Not a problem. Just a warning, especially if you are seeking out endorsements. And there really is an understanding among all the makers. tom [/quote] No need to back out Tom, this is a very interesting read. I agree completely that if the terms of the endorsement state 'exclusive' then I would be kicking up a fuss (and possibly making an example of one or two offenders, terminate contract and reclaim endorsement). Out of interest is it more common to endorse a band or artist? For example if a bassist plays in two different bands, would they usually be expected to play your gear in both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merello Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Good read Tom. For the record, I've never accepted an endorsement............mind you, I've never been offered one! If Brubaker want a 3 gig in school a year man to represent them in Scotland, I'm your man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Interesting to hear the view from the other side of the fence Tom, and IMO your view is entirely justified. As someone who recognises the value of image I certainly couldn't put my name behind an instrument I didn't believe in and wasn't going to play on stage and wouldn't be prepared to be photographed using. And I can't understand why anyone would. I mean most endorsement deal are for money off and what's the point of spending money (even if it is cheap) on gear you are not going to use? Even when the gear is supplied free, my understanding is that most of the time it is a long-term loan for the duration of the endorsement rather than outright gifts. It occurred to me recently that my current band is now at a level where it might not be stupid to try asking for an endorsement deal, but TBH there's not much I need any more. Of the basses I use regularly I already have a loose agreement with one luthier, and the others are all models that are no longer in production and I'm not really interested in any of those manufacturers' current output. I have a great bass rig, but again it's largely stuff that's no longer being made. The most useful things that me and my band could have would be a decent van and a fuel subsidy but I don't see that happening.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) Dick Venom & The Terrortones : Endorsed by Ford Edited July 30, 2012 by charic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1343641617' post='1752896'] Endorsed by Ford [/quote] And Shell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Is there any thread where you can NOT mention Seashell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1343641273' post='1752892'] The most useful things that me and my band could have would be a decent van and a fuel subsidy but I don't see that happening.... [/quote] Strings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1343642002' post='1752902'] Is there any thread where you can NOT mention Seashell? [/quote] But - but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomRichards Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1343625973' post='1752750'] No need to back out Tom, this is a very interesting read. I agree completely that if the terms of the endorsement state 'exclusive' then I would be kicking up a fuss (and possibly making an example of one or two offenders, terminate contract and reclaim endorsement). Out of interest is it more common to endorse a band or artist? For example if a bassist plays in two different bands, would they usually be expected to play your gear in both? [/quote] Usually a company, if it has all the components, may endorse a band, but by and large its individual artist. Endorsing bands makes little pocketbook sense, unless you know the band is already famous or they will be together forever. So if a company makes guitars, basses and amps, or like Fender, owns brands for each instrument, then it may make sense to endorse a band, but even so that normally includes individual artists in it. Doesn't make sense to endorse say, Bela and the Flecktones, but then have Vic Wooten spend most of his time as a solo artist with completely different endorsements. If a bassist plays in two bands, and both are good projects, a company would try to lock them up for their gear, so it isi seen in two bands. The one thing that most players who ask for endorsements seem to miss is that we are not endorsing you for your talent, but for your exposure and your ability to generate enough buzz to make some sales. So, if you are the first chair bassist for the London Symphony Orchestra, I'm probably not going to give you an endorsement because you wouldn't be likely to generate electric bass sales, even if you do play electric. If you are the bass player chosen to tour with a major artist, like Madonna for example, I might not give you and endorsement either because you will barely be seen onstage and on top of that few people even have a clue who plays bass for Madonna. Now, if you are in a band, say Artctic Monkeys, I'm more likely to give you an endorsement because I know you are integral to the band and that you will be seen and heard on stage. A company is even likely to give you some level of endorsement (say, artist pricing) if you are in a very popular local band and everyone in the area knows you, Mr. Bass Player. If we can get product in your local shops, and you go to the shops and people like you, you are more likely to generate a bass sale. So fame and fortune is not necessarily the key. I had a local player approach me for an endorsement recently, and after doing my homework found out that several shops had stocked the bass brand he uses because kids were coming in and asking for them because they saw him playing them and he took time to speak to the kids after shows. Think I didn't sign him up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Thanks for clearing that up No-one knows me so don't bother offering me an endorsement if you're expecting to make a return (yet ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 [quote name='TomRichards' timestamp='1343657387' post='1753200'] Usually a company, if it has all the components, may endorse a band, but by and large its individual artist. Endorsing bands makes little pocketbook sense, unless you know the band is already famous or they will be together forever. So if a company makes guitars, basses and amps, or like Fender, owns brands for each instrument, then it may make sense to endorse a band, but even so that normally includes individual artists in it. Doesn't make sense to endorse say, Bela and the Flecktones, but then have Vic Wooten spend most of his time as a solo artist with completely different endorsements. If a bassist plays in two bands, and both are good projects, a company would try to lock them up for their gear, so it isi seen in two bands. The one thing that most players who ask for endorsements seem to miss is that we are not endorsing you for your talent, but for your exposure and your ability to generate enough buzz to make some sales. So, if you are the first chair bassist for the London Symphony Orchestra, I'm probably not going to give you an endorsement because you wouldn't be likely to generate electric bass sales, even if you do play electric. If you are the bass player chosen to tour with a major artist, like Madonna for example, I might not give you and endorsement either because you will barely be seen onstage and on top of that few people even have a clue who plays bass for Madonna. Now, if you are in a band, say Artctic Monkeys, I'm more likely to give you an endorsement because I know you are integral to the band and that you will be seen and heard on stage. A company is even likely to give you some level of endorsement (say, artist pricing) if you are in a very popular local band and everyone in the area knows you, Mr. Bass Player. If we can get product in your local shops, and you go to the shops and people like you, you are more likely to generate a bass sale. So fame and fortune is not necessarily the key. I had a local player approach me for an endorsement recently, and after doing my homework found out that several shops had stocked the bass brand he uses because kids were coming in and asking for them because they saw him playing them and he took time to speak to the kids after shows. Think I didn't sign him up? [/quote] Very interesting, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) [quote name='merello' timestamp='1343630337' post='1752764'] If Brubaker want a 3 gig in school a year man to represent them in Scotland, I'm your man! [/quote] Only if you're black Edited July 30, 2012 by chrismuzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lettsguitars Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I have one endorsee. He gets special rates and plays a lot of professional gigs with biggish names. I cant say as it has done the brand any good for definate, although it surely hasn't done any harm. The guy has a LOT of basses, jaydee, Pangborn, fender, Alembic etc and I would certainly not expect him to never use these other fine instruments for fear of pissing me off. We are now pretty good mates I hope. He does use mine exclusively as far as I can see, but that's because they are the best not because of any obligatory contract, and he owns around 5 or 6 of my basses, some of which were very early instruments. The way I see it is as long as he is willing to associate himself with my name and keeps coming back for more then I am more than willing to give him the best deal I can. He has had 2 for 1 deals and I knock a couple of hundred quid off every time. I would never give a bass away for free unless it was a world renowned player and even then not many players would expect something for nothing. Lets face it, the good players can afford to pay for them anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomRichards Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 [quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1343659154' post='1753238'] I have one endorsee. He gets special rates and plays a lot of professional gigs with biggish names. I cant say as it has done the brand any good for definate, although it surely hasn't done any harm. The guy has a LOT of basses, jaydee, Pangborn, fender, Alembic etc and I would certainly not expect him to never use these other fine instruments for fear of pissing me off. We are now pretty good mates I hope. He does use mine exclusively as far as I can see, but that's because they are the best not because of any obligatory contract, and he owns around 5 or 6 of my basses, some of which were very early instruments. The way I see it is as long as he is willing to associate himself with my name and keeps coming back for more then I am more than willing to give him the best deal I can. He has had 2 for 1 deals and I knock a couple of hundred quid off every time. I would never give a bass away for free unless it was a world renowned player and even then not many players would expect something for nothing. Lets face it, the good players can afford to pay for them anyway. [/quote] Excellent post and point. Most Brubaker players, especially our custom instruments, are repeat customers, and they pay for their instruments. We are fortunate, in a way, because we have launched a very successful import line to compliment our custom basses, and they have become widely popular. So, we see floods of endorsement requests now. Our best touring bassist right now is Craig Carter, who is touring with Dennis DeYoung of Styx, and Craig purchased his Brubaker Brutes from a local dealer because he liked the build quality and the sounds and the playability. He never asked for an endorsement. However, I understand that there are some artists out their who cannot afford two or three basses required to extensively tour, and building the brand relationship has value. However, unlike in the custom build world, when you have artists looking to use a bass that competes with the everyday MIM Fender or MTD Z series, some requirements for usage come into play. Fortunately most of our "family" is loyal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 [quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1343659154' post='1753238'] I have one endorsee. He gets special rates and plays a lot of professional gigs with biggish names. I cant say as it has done the brand any good for definate, although it surely hasn't done any harm. The guy has a LOT of basses, jaydee, Pangborn, fender, Alembic etc and I would certainly not expect him to never use these other fine instruments for fear of pissing me off. We are now pretty good mates I hope. He does use mine exclusively as far as I can see, but that's because they are the best not because of any obligatory contract, and he owns around 5 or 6 of my basses, some of which were very early instruments. The way I see it is as long as he is willing to associate himself with my name and keeps coming back for more then I am more than willing to give him the best deal I can. He has had 2 for 1 deals and I knock a couple of hundred quid off every time. I would never give a bass away for free unless it was a world renowned player and even then not many players would expect something for nothing. Lets face it, the good players can afford to pay for them anyway. [/quote] Yet no name mentioned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydye Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1343663653' post='1753336'] Yet no name mentioned? [/quote] There's only one player on the current 'players' page, possible endorsee name? [url="http://www.lettsbasses.co.uk/root/players.html"]http://www.lettsbass...ot/players.html[/url] I'll hopefully be adding my name to Jon's players list soon (but not as an endorsee)... Edited July 30, 2012 by andydye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Guy Pratt, Daryl Jones and Anthony Jackson are all just lurking in the shadows but I have just let the secret out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Lou Short. That household name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydye Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1343664788' post='1753359'] Lou Short. That household name. [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merello Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 [quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1343658333' post='1753218'] Only if you're black [/quote] I could do that!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomBassmonkey Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I don't get why someone would get an endorsement if they don't like the gear. I know it feels great to be endorsed, but I really don't see the point. I've personally turned down an endorsement because I didn't like the gear as much as what I was already using. I'm endorsed by GK and do as much as I can to help them, they're on our website, facebook etc. I even have them in my sig here and try and help as much as I can when they're mentioned on this forum. I'm proud to be endorsed by GK, not because I have an endorsement but because I love the brand. I can't imagine getting an endorsement just for the sake of it. The drummer in my band has an endorsement and ended up paying significantly more for his snare compared to another endorsement offer he had (It had to be shipped from the US and incurred all the taxes associated rather than having a UK brand endorsement). He picked the one he has because he preferred the brand and the gear so it was a no brainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I have a Guinness sponsorship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I think it's important to see what 'endorsement' means. Tom alluded to it earlier. TC Electronic don't endorse how good Nathan East's playing is or how famous he is. Nathan East (hopefully) loves the product and agrees to be used in marketing and advertising of the product. The 'payment' for said use of him in the company's advertising is what he receives back in his artist deal. This would include gear and all the other lovely things artists get thrown in. That's an over simplification, but technically, the company don't endorse you. You endorse them. You are telling everyone you use that product because it's the best for you etc etc. When it boils down to it, an endorsement deal is just a business agreement that can satisfy both sides. Any proper agreement worth it's weight in salt would benefit both parties but also include the necessary penalties. For most artists who get 'dropped' it's because they are either not fulfilling their duties, or simply are not worth the costs of the deal. E.g are no longer marketable. I'm yet to see an artist who has been locked out of further deals by wronging their previous company I'm afraid. Mark King, anyone? If anything, knowing that an artist has openly moved from one product to your own is fantastic advertising. Even better a major artist in the public eye. Sure, if they've pissed you off then no doubt you wanna make sure their behaviour gets known so your friends and colleagues and industry contacts don't get burned - but on the same token, an artist who is actually a known one is a little pot of gold for a company. I've seen it enough times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 [quote name='andydye' timestamp='1343664170' post='1753345'] I'll hopefully be adding my name to Jon's players list soon (but not as an endorsee)... [/quote] Cool, while you're at it you could get him to change the colour of the hyperlinks on his site; blue on black is virtually impossible to read! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 [quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1343721991' post='1754014'] I don't get why someone would get an endorsement if they don't like the gear. I know it feels great to be endorsed, but I really don't see the point. I've personally turned down an endorsement because I didn't like the gear as much as what I was already using. I'm endorsed by GK and do as much as I can to help them, they're on our website, facebook etc. I even have them in my sig here and try and help as much as I can when they're mentioned on this forum. I'm proud to be endorsed by GK, not because I have an endorsement but because I love the brand. I can't imagine getting an endorsement just for the sake of it. The drummer in my band has an endorsement and ended up paying significantly more for his snare compared to another endorsement offer he had (It had to be shipped from the US and incurred all the taxes associated rather than having a UK brand endorsement). He picked the one he has because he preferred the brand and the gear so it was a no brainer. [/quote] My feelings exactly. I wouldn`t accept an endorsement unless the gear was what I would purchase myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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