Bass endorsements

[TomRichards]

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1343737350' post='1754345']
When I played for Kosher 12yrs ago both myself and the guitar player were sponsored by guitar and amp manufacturers. The deal I had with Warwick was very simple. It was a basic artist sponsorship deal whereby I had a discount on their basses and all I had to do in return was to give to mention them in credit in any PR literature, wear their merch clothing and be seen using their basses. It was not an endorsement deal and I still had to buy their basses at trade price. But, it was a great help back then as my puny advance didn't stretch very far. I was disappointed when Warwick pulled he plug on me after a distribution restructure in the UK and I was then deemed not to be a big enough name to carry the brand.

The deal I had with Carlsbro was very different. Our guitar player helped to design and develop the NuTone guitar amps and was their main endorsee. The guys at Carlsbro really liked what we were doing and asked me to become an endorsee too. Both Mike and I agreed to an exclusive endorsee deal which is very different to a sponsorship deal. Our amps were provided to us FOC, but in return our responsibilities were a bit more intensive. We had to perform demos and workshops and trade shows, take part in PR duties for the brand, help out with R&D and of course use the brand at any given opportunity. I gues you could say that we were static sales reps for Carlsbro. We developed a very good relationship with both the management team and the guys at the factory and it all worked out very well. I will always be great full for the support that Andy Bishop and his team gave us.

The legalities between what are sponsorship or endorsee deals are very different. With a sponsorship deal the artist is treated as a customer and retail law is applied. An endorsee deal is different if the artist has their gear provided FOC or actually receiving an income from the company along with any contractual obligations agreed. If so, then corporate law is applied.

If a product is sold to the artist as a part of a sponsorship deal, no matter how much of a discount has been given to that person they are still a customer and they have no legal commitment to that brand as a consumer. No matter what has been agreed in black and white it is still very much a gentlemans agreement. It's very much a case of scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. The level of where that takes the company and artist is completely down to them. In any situation the deal should still be treated with respect between both parties purely on moral grounds.

Endorsement deals are very different as they are often a bigger financial commitment by the company and you have more responsibilities as an artist to uphold your contractual agreement. As I said before during my experience with Carlsbro, Mike and I were very much like static sales reps and we had to uphold commitments in our contracts to keep the deal. If we didn't, Carlsbro were legally entitled to return the kit they provided to us as it was their form of payment to us. It wasn't our intention to take the mick with them as we would have been left high and dry without any backline. Musician endorsements don't really work the same way as a sports person endorsement as they usually get payments to use their brand. That is a completely different realm as far as corporate law is concerned. I know of not one musician who recieves a monetary income from a manufacturer, unless they are actually an employee of that company. So, court action rarely happens between an artist and brand. But, in any instance of a grievience the company has more clout than the artist.

I fully understand and appreciate where Tom is coming from. Even though Brubaker is a highly respected brand in the bass playing world they are a small company and brand recognition is a very important. Artist sponsorships are a huge part of that when it comes to exposure. A lot of trust is given to the artist to ensure that they adhere to the terms that has been agreed. Remember, it costs the company to sponsor you...they are not doing it just for fun. These guys are as every bit as passionate about what they do as what you do and they only want the best for their customers and artists. They support you as they feel that you equally represent their passions and help the profile of the brand. Respect the priviliidge that they have given to you and don't abuse their trust. If you want sponsorships to boost your ego or feel that because you think are so awesome the world owes you a living then you don't deserve the support.

Don't let it get you down Tom. There are plenty of other players out there that would be proud to be a part of your brand and wear the badge with pride.
[/quote]

Thank you. I'm not letting it get me down at all.

As a bass player who was on a major label and did several small world tours, I think I'm just more amazed at the attitude of many of the "new elite" bassists or wanna be's. Like I said earlier, I'm seeing a trend with a few of them where they approach you for an endorsement (or sponsorship) specifically to build their personal collections. Because some of these guys are not of the super elites, its often harder to track what they do or if they are living up to their agreements.

Yes, we are all building brand image. I'm one of the few actual bass guys who work for/with actual builders from a business side, so I know who many of these players are and what they are up to. I'm protective of the brand and also want to ensure that the bass players using them are a good citizen and face for the brand. As you said, a great relationship with a company can return on your investment many times over.

As for Warwick, I do not know all the current specifics on all the deals, but they are very rigorous in getting their bang for the buck out of their high profile stable. They do benefit quite well, but they do work a lot harder then they had to in the past with same deals.

Now I'm done, for sure. On to bigger and better things, like getting some Brubaker basses in the UK!

Oh, and even though he didn't quite pull it off in the Championships, Go Andy Murray, bring home the gold for the Queen!

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TomRichards' timestamp='1343753023' post='1754665']
I'm protective of the brand and also want to ensure that the bass players using them are a good citizen and face for the brand.
[/quote]

This is the sort of thing that would put me right off any kind of deal, Sid Vicious was not exactly a good citizen but I would imagine there are a few Fender fans on this site that felt the urge to at least try a P bass after seeing him? I'd rather buy my own gear and behave how I want ta

Edited July 31, 2012 by stingrayPete1977

[discreet]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1343753999' post='1754691']
Sid Vicious was not exactly a good citizen but I would imagine there are a few Fender fans on this site that felt the urge to at least try a P bass after seeing him? I'd rather buy my own gear and behave how I want ta [/quote]

You should nick it, really.

[TomRichards]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1343753999' post='1754691']
This is the sort of thing that would put me right off any kind of deal, Sid Vicious was not exactly a good citizen but I would imagine there are a few Fender fans on this site that felt the urge to at least try a P bass after seeing him? I'd rather buy my own gear and behave how I want ta
[/quote]

Sid Vicious never actually played bass. Lots of documentation on that. And his bass was purchased, not endorsed or sponsored.

I'll be glad to sell you a ton of basses so you can play them any way you want. ;-)

[stingrayPete1977]

Your missing my point, so what if he was a bell end that could not even play, he has sold more Fender basses just by being him than all the endorsers of all the gear on basschat put together. If Fender could go back in time I'm sure they would be happy to send him a dozen.

[Machines]

I personally find endorsements to be a little odious. Things are much worse in the guitar world though, where certain famous guitarists seem to have a signature everything with their logo on just to make a few bucks (Slash, i'm looking at you !). I'm sure they don't use much of this stuff and have just agreed for their name to go on it as they know it's a good revenue stream.

Even though i'm no pro, I'd be reluctant to be limited to a certain brand as I think it'd limit my creativity soundwise, but I get the feeling a lot of endorsees aren't that bothered.

[Marvin]

I've read this entire thread and have yet to work out why I've done so. I've not the faintest idea about the world of endorsements and the likelihood of me being endorsed is sooooooooooooo small

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Machines' timestamp='1343755372' post='1754725']
I personally find endorsements to be a little odious.
[/quote]

It's just marketing isn't it? The use of well-known people to endorse a product in return for something is as old as the hills - even Michael Parkinson sells OAP insurance (or whatever).

I can't really see a problem, either way, though like any contractural agreement it's not a good idea to break the terms.

[Machines]

True, I guess I find a lot of advertising to be generally offensive to my intelligence.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1343756626' post='1754746']
It's just marketing isn't it? The use of [u][b]well-known people[/b][/u] to endorse a product in return for something is as old as the hills - even Michael Parkinson sells OAP insurance (or whatever).

I can't really see a problem, either way, though like any contractural agreement it's not a good idea to break the terms.
[/quote]

But most of the people involved are not known at all, loads of brands have sold themselves out by giving deals which appear to be not a lot more than being able to add it in your sig on here and a free T-shirt to people no one else has any idea who they are. Giving Flea a bank of GK speaker cabs makes sense as people will recognise the brand being used by Flea so it must be good enough for them, giving me anything is a waste really as no one relates my ability to anyone elses gear and no one knows who I am anyway, It appears to me some brands are doing deals of some sort with people no more or less important than me?

[geoffbassist]

I see it all types of players with endorsements and think that a lot of these artist deals have nothing to do with brand exposure.
IMO it's often just a way for the manufacturer to make a sale direct and offer the saving to the bassist. They still get the same price for their product by cutting out the retailer and the player feels good about being endorsed.

Of course there are still guys out their who are endorsed in the traditional form, but there seems to be many levels of endorsement. All good for the player though.

[TomRichards]

First, @StingrayPete - I got your point, but then again, in 1977 there were really only a handful of bass choices you could actually get readily. Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker and the then recent Aria Pro II series. It was rare to find many other bass brands available. As for Sid's causing sales, yes, he probably did. But then again, there are Brubaker players on major tours, like Craig Carter who is with Dennis DeYoung of Styx, who purchased their own basses from a local shop and whose use of them has triggered a few sales. I'm pretty sure though, you wouldn't want to have Sid Vicious working your brand live, great in print, "pretty in pictures", but not live. I know. I knew Sid for a short time before he died. I found it hard to even want to be within a few hundred meters of him. Shame, as he really was a sweet soul before he decided to live the "punk" image Malcolm told him he was.

As for endorsements for players, yes, there are different deals available at different levels. Bass players are often a lot less known and rarely do you come by many who front a band. It becomes a careful, intelligent guess when it comes to who you give them too. Most companies today do not seek out players to endorse. I get at least a dozen requests every day. I get them from some well known players. I have been endorsed by Hartke for many years. My deal is not exclusive, however I never use anything but his stuff live because of how well they treat me and the loyalty they have shown me. I'm not all that famous either, but I will make store appearances, loan my amps, as needed if asked by them. I have no problem being a Hartke billboard. They were nice enough to see the good in me, and in return I try hard to help them make some do-re-mi.

Some smaller brands or rebuilding brands, say Burns or Hagstrom on your side of the pond, might be willing to let some product go at cost or even free, even to a local guy, if they see it being a beneficial relationship. Putting a Burns Bison bass in the hands of the local bass teacher who has 50 students will always lead to a sale or two and gives it great exposure. Not a bad deal for either the teacher or the brand.

Anyway, everyone go out and buy the bass they love. Ultimately, that is the most important thing.

tom

[Dood]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1343757474' post='1754773']
But most of the people involved are not known at all, loads of brands have sold themselves out by giving deals which appear to be not a lot more than being able to add it in your sig on here and a free T-shirt to people no one else has any idea who they are. Giving Flea a bank of GK speaker cabs makes sense as people will recognise the brand being used by Flea so it must be good enough for them, giving me anything is a waste really as no one relates my ability to anyone elses gear and no one knows who I am anyway, It appears to me some brands are doing deals of some sort with people no more or less important than me?
[/quote]

That's probably true and the fault of the company being greedy. It doesn't do the image of endorsement or sponsorship any good whatsoever (in whatever industry).

[Dood]

[quote name='Machines' timestamp='1343756796' post='1754751']
True, I guess I find a lot of advertising to be generally offensive to my intelligence.
[/quote]

Yes, I can't remember the last time I turned the TV on - honestly! dumbed down advertising is painful! I swear my concentration is better since permanently unplugging my telleeee-box!

[shizznit]

[quote name='TomRichards' timestamp='1343753023' post='1754665']
Now I'm done, for sure. On to bigger and better things, like getting some Brubaker basses in the UK!
[/quote]

Now that I can't wait for! I have a couple of friends Stateside that swear by them and I am sure the Brutes would take off very well over here. Keep us up to date with any news about that if it happens!

[dc2009]

[quote name='TomRichards' timestamp='1343753023' post='1754665']
As a bass player who was on a major label and did several small world tours, I think I'm just more amazed at the attitude of many of the "new elite" bassists or wanna be's. Like I said earlier, I'm seeing a trend with a few of them where they approach you for an endorsement (or sponsorship) specifically to build their personal collections. Because some of these guys are not of the super elites, its often harder to track what they do or if they are living up to their agreements.
[/quote]

But do you also not think that actually, when a lot of bass players these days interact on sites such as this one and TB, and they see players who play for bands they've never/barely heard of getting endorsements, they think they could perhaps stretch to that too and that actually the increased interaction with people in these positions actually inflates the number of "wannabees" and people who think they are owed something?

I mean, the fact that I can't open google or facebook etc. without adverts for basses and related products, often with some artist's face or name on it means that I probably have a skewed opinion of just quite how much endorsements are out there! The fact it is so widespread makes people think it is easier to get and the terms should be relatively favourable to them.

I'm not having a go, but I think if endorsements were reserved exclusively for the very elite (I'm talking contributing artist to a platinum record here), then actually, people might realise the worth of one and not just think they were entitled to one.

Edited July 31, 2012 by dc2009

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='TomRichards' timestamp='1343753023' post='1754665']
Now I'm done, for sure. On to bigger and better things, like getting some Brubaker basses in the UK!
[/quote]

baws to all this endorsement stuff.... that's more interesting. Loan one to one of the mods to make a video blog review of it or something - you can get it back and we'll all get to hear it/ hear all about it. Find someone small to distribute it, even just mail order only- see what happens.

[Dood]

[quote name='dc2009' timestamp='1343771564' post='1755134']
..... people who think they are owed something?

........people might realise the worth of one and not just think they were entitled to one.
[/quote]

It's a sad state of affairs that too many people in this world think that they are somehow owed something and thinking that they should get it for free. Maybe even being discourteous to those who have worked bloody hard for their achievements too.

As you say, it's not a right, I think it should be earned like in so many other industries.

[Dood]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1343774785' post='1755212']
baws to all this endorsement stuff.... that's more interesting. Loan one to one of the mods to make a video blog review of it or something - you can get it back and we'll all get to hear it/ hear all about it. Find someone small to distribute it, even just mail order only- see what happens.
[/quote]

I've been contacted by a company to do a review of some instruments actually! Great minds and all that kinda thing! I write the Bass Guitar section for a worldwide online guitar magazine, so I've had plenty of great instruments to compare to!

[dc2009]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1343774785' post='1755212']
baws to all this endorsement stuff.... that's more interesting. Loan one to one of the mods to make a video blog review of it or something - you can get it back and we'll all get to hear it/ hear all about it. Find someone small to distribute it, even just mail order only- see what happens.
[/quote]

I think that we could well do with a trade stand at the bass bash. Firms could come (and perhaps contribute towards the hire of the venue) for us each to have a go on them. I'm talking small producers and guys that haven't (yet) cracked the UK like Brubaker, because we can all have a go on each others' Fenders, Warwicks, Yammys etc.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1343775009' post='1755217']
... As you say, it's not a right, I think it should be earned like in so many other industries.
[/quote]

Amen.

[ThomBassmonkey]

Why do endorsed artists have to be well known?

I like to think I've had a hand in a few people on here making the choice to go with a GK amp, also out there in the scary world I've had a lot of people tell me they love my amp and regardless of whether or not they eventually buy one, GK isn't that well known and I'm doing my part to raise awareness of them. My band's also being played on Kerrang at the moment and my amps are featured in the video, surely, despite the fact I'm not famous, that's got to be worth some support from Polar and GK?

I think the biggest thing is that it's basically advertising. Giving someone a discount doesn't actually cost the company anything (assuming they're not selling for less than production costs) and it gets their name about a bit. I think some people don't understand the point of endorsements because they've not found gear that they're happy to settle with and thus assume that people that want/have endorsements are being greedy/wanting free stuff.

[Dood]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1343804478' post='1755341']
Why do endorsed artists have to be well known?
[/quote]

I guess it depends on what 'well known' means to the company. A guitar teacher may only be known in the city he teaches, yet has proven that by the work he does, he connects to hundreds of possible customers regularly. e.g. advertising his business in the local press / at gigs / online / social networks etc. A guitar teacher is expected to be someone who knows gear and if they are using a particular product then students looking up to them are likely to go with their advice. And there are guitar teachers I know who are way better known round here than a lot of bands! - Yet they aren't 'famous' or in the limelight'.

[Dood]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1343804478' post='1755341']
I think some people don't understand the point of endorsements because they've not found gear that they're happy to settle with and thus assume that people that want/have endorsements are being greedy/wanting free stuff.
[/quote]

That's one possibility, yes. Certainly I have heard plenty of 'musicians' talking about gear and "wanting to blag free stuff from" a particular company. Yes they might like the gear, but maybe they think that you get free stuff and have to do nothing in return. It doesn't work like that. It's a bit like saying 'oh I got a free iPhone with this new contract!' - ahhhh, no, no you didn't you're still paying for it....

[attackbass]

Is this the Kosher that Mo from Mo's music shop played in? I remember the name and bought a bunch of Hartke stuff from him 12 years ago! Was such a good shop!



[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1343737350' post='1754345']
When I played for Kosher 12yrs ago both myself and the guitar player were sponsored by guitar and amp manufacturers. The deal I had with Warwick was very simple. It was a basic artist sponsorship deal whereby I had a discount on their basses and all I had to do in return was to give to mention them in credit in any PR literature, wear their merch clothing and be seen using their basses. It was not an endorsement deal and I still had to buy their basses at trade price. But, it was a great help back then as my puny advance didn't stretch very far. I was disappointed when Warwick pulled he plug on me after a distribution restructure in the UK and I was then deemed not to be a big enough name to carry the brand.

The deal I had with Carlsbro was very different. Our guitar player helped to design and develop the NuTone guitar amps and was their main endorsee. The guys at Carlsbro really liked what we were doing and asked me to become an endorsee too. Both Mike and I agreed to an exclusive endorsee deal which is very different to a sponsorship deal. Our amps were provided to us FOC, but in return our responsibilities were a bit more intensive. We had to perform demos and workshops and trade shows, take part in PR duties for the brand, help out with R&D and of course use the brand at any given opportunity. I gues you could say that we were static sales reps for Carlsbro. We developed a very good relationship with both the management team and the guys at the factory and it all worked out very well. I will always be great full for the support that Andy Bishop and his team gave us.

The legalities between what are sponsorship or endorsee deals are very different. With a sponsorship deal the artist is treated as a customer and retail law is applied. An endorsee deal is different if the artist has their gear provided FOC or actually receiving an income from the company along with any contractual obligations agreed. If so, then corporate law is applied.

If a product is sold to the artist as a part of a sponsorship deal, no matter how much of a discount has been given to that person they are still a customer and they have no legal commitment to that brand as a consumer. No matter what has been agreed in black and white it is still very much a gentlemans agreement. It's very much a case of scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. The level of where that takes the company and artist is completely down to them. In any situation the deal should still be treated with respect between both parties purely on moral grounds.

Endorsement deals are very different as they are often a bigger financial commitment by the company and you have more responsibilities as an artist to uphold your contractual agreement. As I said before during my experience with Carlsbro, Mike and I were very much like static sales reps and we had to uphold commitments in our contracts to keep the deal. If we didn't, Carlsbro were legally entitled to return the kit they provided to us as it was their form of payment to us. It wasn't our intention to take the mick with them as we would have been left high and dry without any backline. Musician endorsements don't really work the same way as a sports person endorsement as they usually get payments to use their brand. That is a completely different realm as far as corporate law is concerned. I know of not one musician who recieves a monetary income from a manufacturer, unless they are actually an employee of that company. So, court action rarely happens between an artist and brand. But, in any instance of a grievience the company has more clout than the artist.

I fully understand and appreciate where Tom is coming from. Even though Brubaker is a highly respected brand in the bass playing world they are a small company and brand recognition is a very important. Artist sponsorships are a huge part of that when it comes to exposure. A lot of trust is given to the artist to ensure that they adhere to the terms that has been agreed. Remember, it costs the company to sponsor you...they are not doing it just for fun. These guys are as every bit as passionate about what they do as what you do and they only want the best for their customers and artists. They support you as they feel that you equally represent their passions and help the profile of the brand. Respect the priviliidge that they have given to you and don't abuse their trust. If you want sponsorships to boost your ego or feel that because you think are so awesome the world owes you a living then you don't deserve the support.

Don't let it get you down Tom. There are plenty of other players out there that would be proud to be a part of your brand and wear the badge with pride.
[/quote]