Bass endorsements

[Gust0o]

Good post, Dood.

Indeed, would the term "sponsorship" not better reflect a company's activities?

[pierreganseman]

Very interesting read.... quite a few levels up from "what's the best bass for metal? or shall i buy a P or a J or a PJ???"

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='TomRichards' timestamp='1343601143' post='1752674']
I don't lump all players in this category, as the majority are good citizens. I have experienced, of late, that there is a rising lot that are starting this trend.
There is a difference in endorsement levels, but the statement that we in the industry look the other way for the big guys is actually the opposite.

Yes, I did a little rant here, but when I was active as a player in the 70's thru the 90's most of us were very respectful of our endorsers, and endorsements were very hard to come by. This recent crew has just been more blatant then I've ever seen.

If your deal is exclusive, and I give you several basses and spend oodles of time working on them to get them to your liking, and I also provide you with tour support, you better be using my stuff.

Ok, I'll chime out now. Not a problem. Just a warning, especially if you are seeking out endorsements. And there really is an understanding among all the makers.

tom
[/quote] Maybe you're being too generous Tom?

It is interesting though, and one wonders where the next step is for endorsements- my guess will be that the manufacturers will start to ask for content as well- my guess Warwick are doing that with Andy Irvine - not just here's a bass for (more or less free, even if it's at cost price lets not kid ourselves the amount of time it takes to build something custom) you to play live and in videos and appear in press - but heres a bass and come generate content for and owned by us.
Example if company X endorsed me maybe I get two basses for the price of one or something - and am expected to play them live and in vids and etc - and also I work my butt off for a wee while making content, videos, writing whatever for the brand.

[Dood]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1343726425' post='1754098']
Example if company X endorsed me maybe I get two basses for the price of one or something - and am expected to play them live and in vids and etc - and also I work my butt off for a wee while making content, videos, writing whatever for the brand.
[/quote]

That would depend on the terms of the contract (if there is one) and you'd be notified of the expectation hopefully well before you sign. If you're not happy, then walk away.

There are different levels of obligation. Some are "here, you can buy gear at distributor rates as long as you tell everyone you use our gear" (and for the odd company that's as far as it gets) all the way up to a water tight tied in contract that isn't far short of a trip to 'the cross roads'. ;0)

Actually, I like a company that comes back to me asking for content AND checking on me to see how I am getting on / proving my worth. It' shows they care about their product and it's perception in the market. But also I have a certain amount of satisfaction in being able to show them that I work hard supporting their products. I'd hope that any company that sees one of their artists working hard would then reward them for 'exceeding expectations'. Good ones do

A good deal with a great company who will truly support you in your musical endeavours is actually harder to find. I feel very lucky in that respect. Feeling like you are part of a team and being invited in to discussions about products and services as well as the company actually caring about what you do doesn't happen often. But if you are fortunate to be using a product you love and the company are supporting you too, then it's great!

[BigRedX]

For both the companies I've worked with on "endorsements" the publicity has gone both ways.

For Gus, I'm out there playing the instruments and telling anyone who's interested about them. I've also been in one of their ads (playing guitar). In return I have an artist page on their website that is kept updated with my current musical activities and links back to my band.

I was also briefly involved with a European amplifier manufacturer (again in my guitar playing days) who were going to do a CD featuring artists using their gear. In addition to a track by my band with me playing through their amp, there was going to be some blurb on the CD sleeve about why I used the products - at the time AFAIK I was one of the few musicians making obvious use of the MIDI capabilities of the amp. Again the publicity would have worked both ways - the amp manufacturer would be able to highlight an overlooked feature of their amps and I'd get a track by my band out to a wider audience. Unfortunately the project fell through just before the CD went into production.

[shizznit]

When I played for Kosher 12yrs ago both myself and the guitar player were sponsored by guitar and amp manufacturers. The deal I had with Warwick was very simple. It was a basic artist sponsorship deal whereby I had a discount on their basses and all I had to do in return was to give to mention them in credit in any PR literature, wear their merch clothing and be seen using their basses. It was not an endorsement deal and I still had to buy their basses at trade price. But, it was a great help back then as my puny advance didn't stretch very far. I was disappointed when Warwick pulled he plug on me after a distribution restructure in the UK and I was then deemed not to be a big enough name to carry the brand.

The deal I had with Carlsbro was very different. Our guitar player helped to design and develop the NuTone guitar amps and was their main endorsee. The guys at Carlsbro really liked what we were doing and asked me to become an endorsee too. Both Mike and I agreed to an exclusive endorsee deal which is very different to a sponsorship deal. Our amps were provided to us FOC, but in return our responsibilities were a bit more intensive. We had to perform demos and workshops and trade shows, take part in PR duties for the brand, help out with R&D and of course use the brand at any given opportunity. I gues you could say that we were static sales reps for Carlsbro. We developed a very good relationship with both the management team and the guys at the factory and it all worked out very well. I will always be great full for the support that Andy Bishop and his team gave us.

The legalities between what are sponsorship or endorsee deals are very different. With a sponsorship deal the artist is treated as a customer and retail law is applied. An endorsee deal is different if the artist has their gear provided FOC or actually receiving an income from the company along with any contractual obligations agreed. If so, then corporate law is applied.

If a product is sold to the artist as a part of a sponsorship deal, no matter how much of a discount has been given to that person they are still a customer and they have no legal commitment to that brand as a consumer. No matter what has been agreed in black and white it is still very much a gentlemans agreement. It's very much a case of scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. The level of where that takes the company and artist is completely down to them. In any situation the deal should still be treated with respect between both parties purely on moral grounds.

Endorsement deals are very different as they are often a bigger financial commitment by the company and you have more responsibilities as an artist to uphold your contractual agreement. As I said before during my experience with Carlsbro, Mike and I were very much like static sales reps and we had to uphold commitments in our contracts to keep the deal. If we didn't, Carlsbro were legally entitled to return the kit they provided to us as it was their form of payment to us. It wasn't our intention to take the mick with them as we would have been left high and dry without any backline. Musician endorsements don't really work the same way as a sports person endorsement as they usually get payments to use their brand. That is a completely different realm as far as corporate law is concerned. I know of not one musician who recieves a monetary income from a manufacturer, unless they are actually an employee of that company. So, court action rarely happens between an artist and brand. But, in any instance of a grievience the company has more clout than the artist.

I fully understand and appreciate where Tom is coming from. Even though Brubaker is a highly respected brand in the bass playing world they are a small company and brand recognition is a very important. Artist sponsorships are a huge part of that when it comes to exposure. A lot of trust is given to the artist to ensure that they adhere to the terms that has been agreed. Remember, it costs the company to sponsor you...they are not doing it just for fun. These guys are as every bit as passionate about what they do as what you do and they only want the best for their customers and artists. They support you as they feel that you equally represent their passions and help the profile of the brand. Respect the priviliidge that they have given to you and don't abuse their trust. If you want sponsorships to boost your ego or feel that because you think are so awesome the world owes you a living then you don't deserve the support.

Don't let it get you down Tom. There are plenty of other players out there that would be proud to be a part of your brand and wear the badge with pride.

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1343664788' post='1753359']
Lou Short. That household name.
[/quote]Ha ha. I didn't say that Lou was famous or owt. He plays with Martin Stephenson who does have a loyal fanbase and is a very good songwriter and performer. Like I say, the main reason I give Lou special deals is down to him being a regular customer and a professional player.

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1343724007' post='1754054']
Cool, while you're at it you could get him to change the colour of the hyperlinks on his site; blue on black is virtually impossible to read!
[/quote]Duly noted.

[Ou7shined]

I wonder why we are skirting the fact that some "artists" get endorsed simply because it looks good.... to be like their heroes. Ok the sponsor may feel like they are getting something in return but I've seen kids (no offence) with endorsed by such and such in their sig and you think "why, you've only been playing for 5 minutes". Hell at times on TB you can't throw a free set of stings in the air without hitting one of the great endorsed.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1343738633' post='1754371']
I wonder why we are skirting the fact that some "artists" get endorsed simply because it looks good.... to be like their heroes. Ok the sponsor may feel like they are getting something in return but I've seen kids (no offence) with endorsed by such and such in their sig and you think "why, you've only been playing for 5 minutes". Hell at times on TB you can't throw a free set of stings in the air without hitting one of the great endorsed.
[/quote]

Rich if Osprey ever want to endorse me... I'm not in a band at the moment having just moved, and when I was it was just at church, I would get you no real exposure- though I would wear one of your osprey t shirts, would not make your brand look cool or good, any videos I made on youtube would be let down by my odd scottish-essex hybrid accent and my lack of skill in playing, oh yeah and i'm probably not good looking enough for anything bigger than a thumbnail on your website. I could however use my design and copy writing skills to give you some GREAT advert copy.... "Look Luke's Osprey Licks" or "People don't listen to what I say, Until I play, my Osprey custom Pingray" or the more general "The best thing from Aberdeen since the oil money" ....

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1343739757' post='1754402']
Rich if Osprey ever want to endorse me... I'm not in a band at the moment having just moved, and when I was it was just at church, I would get you no real exposure- though I would wear one of your osprey t shirts, would not make your brand look cool or good, any videos I made on youtube would be let down by my odd scottish-essex hybrid accent and my lack of skill in playing, oh yeah and i'm probably not good looking enough for anything bigger than a thumbnail on your website. I could however use my design and copy writing skills to give you some GREAT advert copy.... "Look Luke's Osprey Licks" or "People don't listen to what I say, Until I play, my Osprey custom Pingray" or the more general "The best thing from Aberdeen since the oil money" ....
[/quote]

Haha nice one Luke. I shall bear that in mind.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1343743091' post='1754470']
Haha nice one Luke. I shall bear that in mind.
[/quote]

The Osprey Bear Bass has a good ring to it if you're wanting names for inventions

[Gust0o]

I think you should endorse the "tattoo" clause of Luke's contract, Rich.

Nothing live's the brand more than a big Osprey tattoo on his forehead.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1343744914' post='1754497']


The Osprey Bear Bass has a good ring to it if you're wanting names for inventions
[/quote]

If you could make it like a Stingray that would also be cool.

Also, naked adverts. Just a tactically positioned bass to hide the modesty. "Go Bear", "Bear- back", "Bear to believe... That we're all naked", a would make sh*tty copy : lol:

[Ou7shined]

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1343745343' post='1754505']
If you could make it like a Stingray that would also be cool.

Also, naked adverts. Just a tactically positioned bass to hide the modesty. "Go Bear", "Bear- back", "Bear to believe... That we're all naked", a would make sh*tty copy : lol:
[/quote]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1343745488' post='1754509'] [/quote]
oh. I was thinking more along the lines of this.

[Dood]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1343738633' post='1754371']
I wonder why we are skirting the fact that some "artists" get endorsed simply because it looks good....
[/quote]

I don't think we were skirting as such - just didn't have much to do with the OP at the time - but yes, you are right - again, I feel that it's confusion between 'sponsorship' and 'endorsement'. AND who is endorsing who, artist Vs company. Makes me chuckle!

I *can* if I want, turn round and say I endorse ummm... I dunno... 'The iPad' for instance. That's actually true. I love it, it's great. but that doesn't mean I have any connection with Apple whatsoever. I'm just saying I like the product. Maybe there's one or two out there who are being a little artistic with the truth lol!

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1343748164' post='1754571']
Maybe there's one or two out there who are being a little artistic with the truth lol!
[/quote]

I remember a TB member getting ranted at because he amusingly used the endorsing artist box to claim he endorsed Converse All Stars, it was a joke, other less jocular members felt he was a lying scumbag...
i felt it was a bit of an over reaction.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1343748537' post='1754579']
I remember a TB member getting ranted at because he amusingly used the endorsing artist box to claim he endorsed Converse All Stars, it was a joke, other less jocular members felt he was a lying scumbag...
i felt it was a bit of an over reaction.
[/quote]
was his name chuck?

[Dood]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1343748537' post='1754579']
I remember a TB member getting ranted at because he amusingly used the endorsing artist box to claim he endorsed Converse All Stars, it was a joke, other less jocular members felt he was a lying scumbag...
i felt it was a bit of an over reaction.
[/quote]

Yeah, an over reaction! lol - There's a few BRILLIANT signatures on BC actually that have raised a smile with reference to being endorsed! Hmmm what would mine be? I'd choose.. the two best products: 'Gaffer tape if it moves, WD40 if it doesn't' ;o)

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1343747475' post='1754553']
oh. I was thinking more along the lines of this.
[/quote]

Ha I love it. You're hired.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1343748164' post='1754571']... Maybe there's one or two out there who are being a little artistic with the truth lol!
[/quote]

Yeah I guess so.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1343748928' post='1754587']
Ha I love it. You're hired.
[/quote]

YESSSS



(eeek did he notice the OG logo - testicals link.... , it's the dogs OG.... anyway)

[shizznit]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1343748734' post='1754583']


Yeah, an over reaction! lol - There's a few BRILLIANT signatures on BC actually that have raised a smile with reference to being endorsed! Hmmm what would mine be? I'd choose.. the two best products: 'Gaffer tape if it moves, WD40 if it doesn't' ;o)
[/quote]

Hehehe!!!

[stingrayPete1977]

If you look at it from another angle it becomes even more pointless IMO, I am the target audience for these endorsement deals not as an artist but as someone that is meant to be buying the gear because I see other people use it, no offense but I'm not going to go out hunting stuff down because I have seen it in someones sig on BC am I? Unless you are a known player using a known brand I cant see much point other than bragging rights on sites like this really. We all tell each other what gear we like and what we have (look below).