Should the drummer keep time?

[4 Strings]

This is a spillover from the 'Depressing things your band members say' thread regarding comments made by poorly timed drummers.

Some drummers speed up when it comes to fills or other exciting parts of a song. In my experience, if he speeds up the whole band does.

The drummer I play with most often sometimes complains that that the band has sped up, I always reply that we can't if he doesn't. He always replies that we'd be out of time if he didn't. I always reply that we play to his speed. Same conversation, more than lots of times but reducing in frequency. He is also very good at mouthing a count at me if he thinks I'm drifting, I hate this but glad of it.

Should the drummer be setting and maintaining the tempo? He's the one who counts us in (unless its dinner jazz in which case its the singer or, bizarrely, me!)

Ours carries a metronome so we can practice at the right tempo.

Bill Bruford's a jazzer and he thinks this way - look about halfway down;
http://www.elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_King_Crimson_in_Musician


Is the drummer the timing machine (as I think) or is it our collective responsibility?

[JakeBrownBass]

My opinion in this matter is people easily confuse 'good time' and 'keep time'.

Drummers are generally used to 'keep time' in an ensemble unit playing western and that's fair enough in most cases. They are generally the most rhythmic instrument playing so it makes sense. In a lot of Latin music its the clav that 'keeps time'

Each and every musician should develop 'good time'. But most don't.

This sort of thing is easily examined when getting a player to play to a standard click track. Then slowly removing beats so you only have the 1st beat of a bar. SO many players can't seem to do this without difficulty, let alone moving the clock so the single click is on the 'and of two'. Or having a click every 4 bars and staying in time.

[icastle]

I have a very simplistic approach to it.
The drummer is there to keep time, the band is there to play the tune.

My job is to keep the band glued to the drummer - If there was such a thing as a UN Timekeeping Force then that'd be me.

[SteveK]

[quote]Should the drummer be setting and maintaining the tempo?[/quote]
Pretty much, yes!
You've got 2 ears: one for the band, and one reserved exclusively for your drummer.
For timing your focus (and everyone else in the band) should be on the drummer.
Of course it's possible for other band members to 'push' a song to the point where it will speed up. There's very little a drummer can do about it at the time. He can try to put the brakes on, but IMV the best option is to discuss it and see where the problem lies.

[bigd1]

I find this unberlevable as a question on a musicians forum, although I agree with the statment all the band should be able to keep time.
Bit of a basic no brainer sort of question though

[cheddatom]

I have some experience as a drummer. I have to say that I would prefer to set the tempo but in the bands I play in the front man tends to want to shout "1 2 3 4"

However, keeping that tempo constant from the start to the end is very difficult. If the bassist starts playing "on the back of the beat" (not even sure if that's the right phrase) then it can make me slow down, because I don't have a click track i'm playing very much to the "pulse" of the music, and the bassist can really change that, without necessarily intending to change tempo.

Playing to a click is easy though and I'm going to try and start doing it live as well

[bigd1]

Keeping time is really quite easy, infact you just need to do something we all can do COUNT !.
This is at the very basic start of playing music, I would say if you carn't keep time yourself, you make a poor musician.
Things like click tracks etc take away the feel for a live performance. Don't get me wrong some tracks do sound better played with no time movment (with a click), but if you are not able to keep time being able to move the beat is almost impossible, and as I said would make for a very poor performance.

[cheddatom]

In my rock band CreepJoint I will keep time fairly well, but I do speed up and slow down in certain sections. This fits with the feel of the music and works. In another band I play drums in, the style is very much (from a rhythm POV) ska-punk verses and reggae choruses. The guitarist is always pushing the rhythm forward and the bassist is always pulling it back. My ears seem to flit between the two and i'm left with a confusing mess which inevitably leaves me slowing down as i'm concentrating too hard to try and stay in time!

I think keeping time is very easy to do when you're on your own. It can be very difficult when you're playing with other musicians (in my experience)

Any advice from people who find keeping time really easy would be most appreciated!

[SteveK]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1332938584' post='1595117']

Playing to a click is easy though and I'm going to try and start doing it live as well
[/quote]There is a tendency now to want to play music to a strict tempo. IMV music (more-so live music) [i]should[/i] speed up and slow down. Choruses can often benefit from being a couple of BPMs faster. A gradual increase in tempo during an instrumental or solo section can add intensity.
Of course this is all dependant on the type/style of music you are playing.

[Doddy]

I believe that the whole band is responsible for the time. If the drummers time is solid then great,
you can just get on with playing...but there are times when I will(need to) take the lead and lay down where
the time is.Likewise with the other band members.There are times when the drummer may start to drag
and I(or someone else) will try to shift the tempo back but the drummer won't shift...this to me generally
proves that the drummer isn't listening.The ones who do listen will hear where they should be and will
go with it. Time isn't just the job of the drummer.

With regards to Toms point above,if the bass player is playing on the back of the beat the drummer
shouldn't be slowing down. We're talking about the difference between time and feel. Laying back on or
pushing the beat will change the feel and groove but the time can still be the same.If I was laying back
on a groove and the drummer slows it down,then there is a problem somewhere,regardless of if you are
using a click or not.

[chris_b]

The drummer can set the time with a count in but everyone should be playing in time.

If the band speeds up analyse what is causing the problem, don’t just blame the drummer for keeping up.

[Gareth Hughes]

It's everyone's job to play in time and in tune (drummers included here too). Is it really so hard to play in time that folks feel that the sole responsibility of time keeping is the drummers? When you walk - do walk in time or waver and skip beats unintentionally? You walk in time.

Forgive my tone on this but it's something that drives me crazy - to the point where I've stood beside drummers almost banging their cymbals with my headstock to show them the beat and asking afterwards 'Are you in a rush to get home? Is there a good movie on you don't want to miss?"

Speeding up when the tune becomes loud and slowing down when the tune softens is just plain bad playing. Play fast really quiet and slowly really loud - the tempo remains the same no matters what the dynamics.

[BigRedX]

Depends entirely on the type of music and the instrumentation. And also don't forget that there are songs that are supposed to change tempo.

In your standard rock-based band I would expect the drummer to be responsible for keeping time and which ever instrument that starts the song for setting the tempo.

However even in this format there are exceptions. What about songs which use a time based effect on an instrument such as tremolo or delay? In those cases the drummer needs to play to the tempo set by the effect.

[MB1]

MB1.
...Should the Drummer keep time? ................... he should have a watch at the very least!

[right]Coat collected.[/right]

[Valhalalf]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1332937650' post='1595085']
My job is to keep the band glued to the drummer - If there was such a thing as a UN Timekeeping Force then that'd be me.
[/quote]

I'm sorry but that quote just has to go in my sig.

[guyl]

Unfair to make it the sole responsibility of the Drummer. If the band speeds up his choices are to keep metronomic or to go with them. If the band still push, and he won't go with them, it may sound unmusical ....

[musophilr]

Gut reaction: Yes, it's a significant part of his job, although not the only part of it. But I agree with other posters - the whole band ought to have some kind of responsibility for it as well, especially the bass player (isn't that why the drummer and bass player are called the rhythm section?)

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='guyl' timestamp='1332940891' post='1595180']
Unfair to make it the sole responsibility of the Drummer. If the band speeds up his choices are to keep metronomic or to go with them. If the band still push, and he won't go with them, it may sound unmusical ....
[/quote]

^ This

[charic]

[quote name='guyl' timestamp='1332940891' post='1595180']
Unfair to make it the sole responsibility of the Drummer.
[/quote]

I disagree, my guitarists laptop doesn't have feelings anyway!

[Bilbo]

Every player/vocalist needs to deal with time. We are all assuming, for a start, that the drummer is playing. It may comes as a surprise to some here but sometimes they stop (or don't even start for a whole tune) and, if anyone is relying on them to keep time, then they are lost. A lot of jazz/folk/function work is in duos and trios without drummers. If you are looking for someone to tell you where the one is, you'll be waiting a long time.

Part of being a musician is active listening; listening to all parts of any ensmble simultaneously, including yourself, and making minute adjustments moment to moment to manage groove, pulse, intonation, tone, phrasing and, most importantly, time. Every beat tells you when the next one will come, how loud it should be, which note it shoudl be etc and, if there is the slightest slippage, you will need to respond (jazz musicians shoudl be particularly well prepared for this but, regrettably, many are not). If you are expecting everyone else to hold perfect time so you can't go wrong, then you have some work to do.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1332939983' post='1595156']
With regards to Toms point above,if the bass player is playing on the back of the beat the drummer
shouldn't be slowing down.[/quote]

I guess what feels "relaxed" to him feels like slowing down to me... That probably makes no sense. As a bassist, it sounds like he's playing "on the back" but as a drummer it feels like he's slowing down.

Either way I think my point is that even as a drummer, it's impossible to ignore the other members of your band. If you did i'm sure it'd sound crap. Just like listening to a click influences the time keeping, so does listening to the bassist (or guitarist or whatever)

[SteveK]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1332941985' post='1595203']
Every player/vocalist needs to deal with time. We are all assuming, for a start, that the drummer is playing. It may comes as a surprise to some here but sometimes they stop (or don't even start for a whole tune) and, if anyone is relying on them to keep time, then they are lost. A lot of jazz/folk/function work is in duos and trios without drummers. If you are looking for someone to tell you where the one is, you'll be waiting a long time.
[/quote]With respect, for the purpose of this thread, we are kind of assuming that a drummer is involved.

But to be serious, even when, to all intents and purposes, there are no drums, how many times have we heard the drummer still keep a simple hats part going?

There are a few posts in this thread stating the bleedin' obvious, [i]'we should all play in time'[/i]. But I can tell you that I have never played with any musician that I would describe as having 'perfect timing'...and I've played with a few great musicians.

[Stacker]

Cue drummer joke........

How do you know when there's a drummer at your front door?

The knocking speeds up and slows down...... and speeds up!

[LukeFRC]

Speeding up during fills* and the like is what I call "not being able to play the drums"

[Conan]

Most drummers I know should be [b][i]doing[/i][/b] time...