Cutting through the mix - I believe I have found the problem

[WalMan]

So as ever at tonights gig I really felt that the bass just wasn't cutting, either through the PA, or generally and this has been really ticking me off, particularly as I always seem to get "You're too loud" "There's nothing through the PA so I have no control" yet when I listen at soundchecks, and on recordings from the Roland R-05 digital recorder I always get the feeling that the bass is generally lost, especially when the guitarists are playing chords. In the twin guitar bits everything sits better, but chords....

So tonight I feel I am tickling the bass, have everything rolled back, in the soundcheck the bass isn't really distinct and for the classic rock set we are doing it really ought to be fairly in your face with the guitars spaced around it and the kit which are driving things.

First set wasn't too bad, but the second got OTT and I was getting the evils from the drummer, along with one guitarist saying he was getting horrible bass wolf tones that made him think something was out of tune.

In the past I have mentioned to the sound guy that I felt that the bass wasn't really there and that perhaps a High Pass on the guitars might help it all sit together. He does have one set (around 300Hz I believe but it coud well be lower).

Now fair enought, I am no saint, but I do really try to keep levels down and other than getting an 8 Ohm cab to cut the power of the head I am running out of places to go to knock the volume

And then I look at the other guitarists amp settings. so lets us consider those and whether they might not be helping?

We have a Marshall JCM2000 60W TSL602 set as follows:[list]
[*]Clean - Gain 10 : Treble 10 : Middle 3 : Bass 10
[*]Crunch - Gain 7 : Volume 7
[*]Lead - Gain 8 : Volume 9
[*]Crunch/Lead controls Treble 8 : Middle 3 : Bass 10
[/list]
Oooh 'ello, do we think this might not be helping.

Did comment of the settings, particularly the bass as potentially "invading my space" butr apparently set other than this and it squeals.

Ah well. Tomorrows bass settings are "virtually off". GB STM 6.0 master set below the 9 o'clock it is currently on. And there it will stay come what may, and I shall resist digging ing. Everyone can play to me.

So tomorrow nights

[Darkstrike]

Crank your mids, if they're taking the bass and treble, slice straight through that big 'ol hole.

[Mr. Foxen]

If he has squeals, he needs to sort out his guitar. Also, what cabs are those guitars running into?

[risingson]

Mids are your friend. A healthy dose of low mids has always helped my monitoring on stage. If you keep the high mids as flat as possible, it helps stave off the nasal sound you could encounter. Massive lows are not the answer in rock situations, it will only muddy up the stage.

[gafbass02]

Mime at sound check for a bit let em make the comments and give the looks. Then point out you weren't actually playing

As a teen I had to do this as a matter of course due to our singer having a weird problem with me. He'd stand out front next to me at sound check and proclaim the bass too loud everytime, Gig or studio, when I wasn't in the mix. I'd nod sagely and 'sort it' while miming away. All the local engineers knew. We'd just explain at the start of the night lol.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1330141286' post='1553352']
Mids are your friend. A healthy dose of low mids has always helped my monitoring on stage. If you keep the high mids as flat as possible, it helps stave off the nasal sound you could encounter. Massive lows are not the answer in rock situations, it will only muddy up the stage.
[/quote]
+1 Have been harping on about this for a long time

[WalMan]

[quote name='gafbass02' timestamp='1330156309' post='1553371']
Mime at sound check for a bit let em make the comments and give the looks. Then point out you weren't actually playing
[/quote] I did for a while last night, more for my benefit to see if I could hear the bass or not. Problem with that is that is that at that end of the evening level is not the issue (though cut enains for me) It is the second set when levels miraculously leap though "no one touches anything" that level becaomes an issue.

Like I say I think tonight is a night forno digging in and banging the master back even further

The Streamliner has more traditional Bass Mid Treble tone settings with "[size=3][i]Selectable 3-Position Mid Frequencies: 220, 600, 2.5K HZ [/i][/size]" I think I an set on the 220 band but will check tonight. Otherwise I have:[list]
[*]Gain boost switch (STUN ) off
[*]Gain 12 oclock
[*]Volume 11 o'clock
[*]Bass 11 o'clock
[*]Mid 1 o'clock
[*]Treble 1 o'clock
[*]Master 8-9 o'clock
[/list]
Running into the Barefaced Super12T with the horn about halfway on.

I think I need to invest in a BT Midget and keep the S2T for another of the regular deps that require a bt more power

Edited February 25, 2012 by WalMan

[ezbass]

It's been said already but bears repeating; Mids are your friend, even without that massive scoop the guitarist is using. With that scoop you'll stand out super proud without even having to crank the volume too much if you merely boost your midrange, especially the lower mids.

Edited February 25, 2012 by ezbass

[NJE]

My three best friends are guitarists and two of them are obsessed with massively scooped guitar sounds. They crank the treble and bass at home when practicing as it sounds good but they never think what sounds good live and what mixes with the band. When I played with them it was always a battle and you get an incredibly muddy sound especially if they are using 12" speakers I found.

The third friend is a studio musician and does a smaller ammount of live work but he LOVES mids, and realised a long time ago that scooping the sh*t out of your guitar is not the way to get good tone.

I hate scooped guitar sounds and dont think they work live so always discuss this with whoever I am playing with. Guitarists dont need a lot of bass, there is someone else in tthe band who covers that, the name gives it away BASS PLAYER!!! but I realise guitarists are not easy individuals and if you make a comment about their tone you may as well call their child/wife ugly.

As has been mentioned, Mids are your friend if your guitarists are scooped, that will be your sonic space, if however they love their mids, then you can get away with a bit more of a scopped sound but some low mids will always help you feel and hear the bass a bit more on stage in my experience.

[pietruszka]

[quote name='NJE' timestamp='1330158497' post='1553393']
My three best friends are guitarists and two of them are obsessed with massively scooped guitar sounds. They crank the treble and bass at home when practicing as it sounds good but they never think what sounds good live and what mixes with the band. When I played with them it was always a battle and you get an incredibly muddy sound especially if they are using 12" speakers I found.

The third friend is a studio musician and does a smaller ammount of live work but he LOVES mids, and realised a long time ago that scooping the sh*t out of your guitar is not the way to get good tone.

I hate scooped guitar sounds and dont think they work live so always discuss this with whoever I am playing with. Guitarists dont need a lot of bass, there is someone else in tthe band who covers that, the name gives it away BASS PLAYER!!! but I realise guitarists are not easy individuals and if you make a comment about their tone you may as well call their child/wife ugly.

As has been mentioned, Mids are your friend if your guitarists are scooped, that will be your sonic space, if however they love their mids, then you can get away with a bit more of a scopped sound but some low mids will always help you feel and hear the bass a bit more on stage in my experience.
[/quote]
Absolutely bang on. Exactly what I was going to say. I also find guitarists, not all, so wrapped up in how their guitar sounds that they neglect what it will sound like in with every one else. The result? A muddy, wallowy and undefined sound for everyone. I'd be inclined to get the guitarists to roll their bass off A LOT, get some mids in their sound and leave you to fill he bottom end in. You are the BASS player after all.



Dan

[hamfist]

[quote name='WalMan' timestamp='1330156929' post='1553376']
I did for a while last night, more for my benefit to see if I could hear the bass or not. Problem with that is that is that at that end of the evening level is not the issue (though cut enains for me) It is the second set when levels miraculously leap though "no one touches anything" that level becaomes an issue.

Like I say I think tonight is a night forno digging in and banging the master back even further

The Streamliner has more traditional Bass Mid Treble tone settings with "[size=3][i]Selectable 3-Position Mid Frequencies: 220, 600, 2.5K HZ [/i][/size]" I think I an set on the 220 band but will check tonight. Otherwise I have:[list]
[*]Gain boost switch (STUN ) off
[*]Gain 12 oclock
[*]Volume 11 o'clock
[*]Bass 11 o'clock
[*]Mid 1 o'clock
[*]Treble 1 o'clock
[*]Master 8-9 o'clock
[/list]
Running into the Barefaced Super12T with the horn about halfway on.

I think I need to invest in a BT Midget and keep the S2T for another of the regular deps that require a bt more power
[/quote]


IMO, you need your mids on the 600Hz setting for classic rock. Actually, 600 is just PERFECT. That's where the "cut" lies. Don't be frightened, having the mids dial on 4-5 o'clock, if necessary, is quite acceptable.
I suspect, even if your guitarists are producing a muddy mush, you will still punch through without producing all the "boom" that I suspect your bandmates don't like from the combination of all the bass frequencies flying around the stage. You need some bass frequencies, but only just enough is best for live work. Good luck

[thisnameistaken]

Why would the guitars feed back when they turn the bass knob down? I guess because they're turning up the volume to compensate? They shouldn't need to add more volume if nothing is competing with them for those higher frequencies.

It will be impossible to get any kind of clear sound on stage until they fix their EQ.

[JTUK]

Your guys need a bit of education about layering sound.
They can't just turn up and play what to them is a great sound and be oblivious to what space everyone else needs...plus there are two of them...!!

You all need to dial in your preferred sounds and then compromise that to suit the band sound.
Most bands run a wall of sound and then wonder why something isn't coming through.. it becomes a fight as to who has the most powerful sound/frequency forced through the wall.

The drums need to be tuned ... to sound good, and to sit in their defined layer. The bass will likely sit just below this..but when running both bass and drums, you should easily have it running nice and simply and sounding good.
Now..hand it over the the gtrs and 'challenge' them to play and not destroy the mix. If they can alter their outputs and styles and it all sounds good, you have educated them, if they can't, then you'll need to book time with a studio and
teach them layered dynamics.
Of course, you also need them to stick to these lessons and that will be just as hard a job.

Most gtrs run waaaay too much bass end which just swamps everyone else and it becomes a volume fight rather than a mix.

Plan C ..is not to play with such f***wits ..as they don't understand the concept of a band..only their part in it and you'll never sound good, let alone great, IMO.

Edited February 25, 2012 by JTUK

[KiOgon]

If you haven't got a Gramma - ? Get one under your cabs mate - It will focus your sound more than you would ever imagine Worth every penny

Cheerz, John

[pietruszka]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1330162880' post='1553470']
Why would the guitars feed back when they turn the bass knob down? I guess because they're turning up the volume to compensate? They shouldn't need to add more volume if nothing is competing with them for those higher frequencies.

It will be impossible to get any kind of clear sound on stage until they fix their EQ.
[/quote]
[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1330164274' post='1553504']
Your guys need a bit of education about layering sound.
They can't just turn up and play what to them is a great sound and be oblivious to what space everyone else needs...plus there are two of them...!!

You all need to dial in your preferred sounds and then compromise that to suit the band sound.
Most bands run a wall of sound and then wonder why something isn't coming through.. it becomes a fight as to who has the most powerful sound/frequency forced through the wall.

The drums need to be tuned ... to sound good, and to sit in their defined layer. The bass will likely sit just below this..but when running both bass and drums, you should easily have it running nice and simply and sounding good.
Now..hand it over the the gtrs and 'challenge' them to play and not destroy the mix. If they can alter their outputs and styles and it all sounds good, you have educated them, if they can't, then you'll need to book time with a studio and
teach them layered dynamics.
Of course, you also need them to stick to these lessons and that will be just as hard a job.

Most gtrs run waaaay too much bass end which just swamps everyone else and it becomes a volume fight rather than a mix.

Plan C ..is not to play with such f***wits ..as they don't understand the concept of a band..only their part in it and you'll never sound good, let alone great, IMO.
[/quote]
Exactly! When I play in a band I roll a little bit of top off, because the guitarist is there, and I have them roll off their bass 'cos thats where I am. And turn them down! Theres fewer things worse than a guitarist thats waaaayy too loud. If things are sounding muddy and mushy, its your guitarists fault if thats their settings.

A sneaky plan is to get someone from the audience, a stranger (ie friend) to give you some feedback on the sound. Have them tell the band what you think needs to be done. If it comes from someone outside of the band they should be more likely to listen.



Dan

Edited February 25, 2012 by pietruszka

[gafbass02]

This is really interesting to me as im currently playing guitar for the first time, What about one guitar, one bass bands? Surely it's less of an issue there?
Incidentally the reason I went back to markbass from my Genz Benz is because I prefer having control over hi and lo mids separately rather than having to choose al la the genz.

Ironiclly I sold it to my bass player lol!

On guitar I'm using a slight smiley face, bass about 2-3o clock, mid about 10-11 o clock and treble about 3-4 o clock and it seems to sound fine to me but as playing guitar is totally new to me
(only picked up a guitar for the first time in August) I'm very open to advice re the whole malarkey!
Here's us live for reference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qnMl-iyUqM&sns=em

Edited February 25, 2012 by gafbass02

[Dave Tipping]

I think others have hit the nail on the head. I've made the same mistake in the past .. you set up your bass eq with a scooped mid at home because it sounds huge ... Then despite being loud on stage your sound is lost. You really have to eq the entire band in a live and loud situation. As a starter though cut the guitarists bass, boost your mids and all turn down a bit!

[geoffbyrne]

if I'm playing guitar, Gaz, it's Bass at 12 0'clock, Treble at 3 o'clock & Mids at Max!!! It suits my amp (Fender Studio 85) but YMMV.

G.

[nottswarwick]

Sounds decent enough. Personally I would not use a smiley face though, I would use a sad face - boosted mids - my guitar rig is a Fender hot rod, and I always drop the bass down.

The band I play bass in has 2 guitarists, and one of them has a big Ashdown Guitar combo, that, aside from sounding generally sh*t, he always dials in a load of bass. And the adds a boss DS1. Sounds sank, so when he is not looking (I stand next to him) I change the amp EQ. If I don't it really eats my sound....

Nice band, by the way. Looks fun.

[Lozz196]

Those guitar setting are a "bedroom sound". I don`t mean that in a condescending manner, but what they are doing is compensating for having no bass, no cymbals etc, so covering all of the sonic space on their own. Ask the guitarist to try the following:

Knock the Gain back by 1, on both Crunch & Lead Channels - this should prevent some of the squeal (if not, the guitarist needs those pickups looking at). Then, on the Crunch & Lead Channels, pull the Bass back to about 7 , likewise with the Treble back to 6, and up the mids to about 4 or 5.

I`d also suspect, going by those settings, that Reverb is probably being hammered too. Knock that back to about 3 or 4 on the Crunch & Lead Channels.

Your guitarist won`t like the sound of it on its own, but get the band playing, and his eyes should light up as suddenly he hears himself like never before.

Those TSLs are monsters, and can easily swamp a band - an ex bandmate of mine had one, and I learned how to set mine up by seeing what he did with his and how he thought it was funny that only he could be heard in the band.

[hamfist]

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1330166255' post='1553554']
Sounds sank, so when he is not looking (I stand next to him) I change the amp EQ. If I don't it really eats my sound....

Nice band, by the way. Looks fun.
[/quote]

THat's an impressively sneaky move ! He must be rather a doofus to not notice.

[MarkG3]

+1 for the mids, but also the guitarists having their eq with bass on 10 isn't really helping. I understand they don't want to sound like wasps in a tin can but if there is a lot of squealing that should be sending a signal to them that their eq ain't working. Ask them to turn the gain down a bit and the bass down as then their sounds will mix better and probably sound better as well. IMO a band should sound good as a band and not as individual instruments sounding great at the expense of others.

[nottswarwick]

the band should sound like one big single instrument - imagine a set of shelves, with each instrument on a slightly different one.

I know you probably know this anyway....but hey, if I am doing live sound boards, it is the approach I take.

[Len_derby]

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1330170108' post='1553639']
the band should sound like one big single instrument - imagine a set of shelves, with each instrument on a slightly different one.


[/quote]

Exactly. Most people listening to ensemble music often don't know which sound comes from which instrument. And frankly, don't really care. The sound of the band is either good or bad.

[nottswarwick]

You will always got band members moaning about things onstage - I have never been in a band when it is not the case - usually the singer - well buy yourself some decent powered monitors or in ears as this is the equivalent of your "rig", or shut the f up...

But I digress. Haha looking forward to tonight p typically terrible on stage sound. I shall be using my Neo 115 and GK Mb200 only. On a gramma pad. I shall sound righteous at least lol.