Bass going through the pa

[jezzaboy]

I guess that this has been asked before, but not by me so here goes...

The band I am in constanty moans that I play far too loud. Whilst using my Ashdown with a 15inch speaker, I had to have it loud just to hear myself. I now use an Eden 2x10 and can hear myself better and I prefer the sound from it. But still they moan.

As I have a Sansamp and a powered monitor for myself and drummer boy, I am thinking of using the Sansamp and sticking into the powered mixer and putting the bass through the pa speakers and using the monitor for, well, monitoring. (Before anyone states the obvious, I know that is the way you are supposed to use the Sansamp).
This should help bring down the on stage (corner of pub we are jammed into) volume and should keep me and the numpty singer and guitarist`s happy.

What do ya think? If you use this set up, what are the + and the -?

Cheers, Jez

[Stewart]

We'd need to know what the PA consists of to give any meaningful answer...

[Ace 0f Bass]

i think that this is a common problem with most bands i know it is with mine!
what your saying would work but would you really be happy with it?
have you tried changing your tone or trying to get a balance of tones with all the instruments? so instead of having however many individual sounds you have one big sound but you can hear each seperate instrument but they also compliment each other.

[Cat Burrito]

Jez - if the band are complaining you are too loud then chances are you are too loud.

Sometimes players stand by their amps and claim they can't hear anything whilst everybody else quietly wipes the blood from their ears. It may be that if you angle the cab, raise the cab or stand elsewhere you'll see why people are saying you are too loud. It's difficult to comment further without being there but I think your answer lies in the positioning of the player or the amp.

Although I suspect it's not the solution bass through the PA can sound fine & I've done it before - certainly at acoustic gigs.

[OldGit]

+1 for standing away from your amp to hear it. Bass is always louder a few feet in front of the speakers than it is when you are standing over it.

I'm in the "can't hear Ashdown" department but I'd suggest the first thing you do is make sure your speakers are nearer your ears than your knees. So elevate the cab on a stand or beer crates or whatever. I have played through stacks where the 2x10 was on top of the 1x15 with the 15 cab not plugged in. Looks right and sounds a lot better, especially in a small pub. Then you can use your bass speakers as a stage monitor for your bass.

Send a feed the front of house PA to get the sound out to the audience, either from a Di out on your amp or from the foot pedal. How much depends on what you've got in the PA but I give our little "vocal only" PA a touch of bass because it throws it further than my rig does, and we can play at lower volumes.

There are other things you should do such as make sure the sonic spectrum is shared well in the band and that your don't have a guitarist or keyboard player with tons of bass in their sound making it hard to hear your bass when it's more quiet.

Edited January 4, 2010 by OldGit

[essexbasscat]

Did join a band a while ago that said a previous bass player had blown their PA speakers up - too heavy on the low frequencies for cabs that were not suited for them.

Something to consider maybe ?

Good luck with it

T

[jezzaboy]

[quote name='BurritoBass' post='701032' date='Jan 4 2010, 09:57 PM']Jez - if the band are complaining you are too loud then chances are you are too loud.

Sometimes players stand by their amps and claim they can't hear anything whilst everybody else quietly wipes the blood from their ears. It may be that if you angle the cab, raise the cab or stand elsewhere you'll see why people are saying you are too loud. It's difficult to comment further without being there but I think your answer lies in the positioning of the player or the amp.

Although I suspect it's not the solution bass through the PA can sound fine & I've done it before - certainly at acoustic gigs.[/quote]


Burrito

Your spot on there! Most of the places we play we are stuck in a corner and space is at a premnium. I end up standing right beside my amp and as you say, cant hear a bloomin thing. Half the time I am in with the punters!

That is the reason I was thinking of putting it through the pa and using a wedge powered monitor and the sansamp. I`m not too bothered about not using an amp as the Sansamp has sounded good in the past. If it`s good enough for Geddy, it`s good enough for me Mabye I`ve just answered my own question.

Stewart:The pa consists of a 1200watt powered mixer, 2 powered monitors and a set of Peavey pro speakers. Not a big set up but it`s ok for the places we play.

Jez

[Cat Burrito]

I also think Old Git makes a great point on bass in other instruments. I once worked with a keyboard player that kept slipping clashing left hand melodies into the mix that made me think I was going wrong. Luckily I raised it and we sorted those songs. Doesn't hurt for the band to take a look at their settings either - get you all to gel as a unit.

Possibly an amp stand or way of raising the amp (crates?) might improve things too. I've played similar stages and the other danger is using a PA at a venue with no monitors! With the amp on the floor your knees are enjoying the best of your tone. If it is raised you'll hear more. Most amp stands have a tilt too so you can angle it at your head and hear better what is being played.

[ironside1966]

Can you be heard out front if every body eless thinks your too loud maybe you are not the one to judge.

Volume is additive my advice would be to wean yourself off of the high volume and learn to listen and play quiter you will get used to it. and it will benifit you more in long run.

[Delberthot]

I've used an amp stand for years




Means I can have it pointed right at my lugs and am able to point it away from my other band members so that its not too loud in their direction - although that's not going to be so easy now that i have an 8x10"

Edited January 4, 2010 by Delberthot

[Dread Bass]

Do you use ear plugs? this helped me. Also eqing well helped big time i play in a death metal band and found that boosting the mids and keeping everything flat helped me no end in hearing myself. If you don't cut through you will always struggle.

[Stewart]

Well, there's nothing to stop you trying - though you might find the low end limits imposed by those PA cabs means quite a bit of compromise in level and tone.

Then again, playing in the corner of a pub is already a considerable compromise...

Will the guitarist be ditching his rig and joining you through the PA?

[jezzaboy]

The guitarist? Through the pa?

Naw, he needs to use his amp up loud or the effects don`t work apparently.


I think I`ll try the sansamp-mixing desk-powered monitor set up on friday and take my amp with me in case it`s mince. I going to get myself one of those stands. Could be the answer and they aint all that expensive. Cheers for all the input so far!

Jez

Edited January 5, 2010 by jezzaboy

[witterth]

[quote name='jezzaboy' post='701172' date='Jan 5 2010, 12:01 AM']The guitarist? Through the pa?

Naw, he needs to use his amp up loud or the effects don`t work apparently.


I think I`ll try the sansamp-mixing desk-powered monitor set up on friday and take my amp with me in case it`s mince. I going to get myself one of those stands. Could be the answer and they aint all that expensive. Cheers for all the input so far!

Jez[/quote]
Those stands really work!!
I had one on witch I'd put a small 150w/200w trace valve combo and it worked a treat (and I'm deaf in one ear too,so that dosen't help matters)
I'd go so far as to say it worked as well as the 4x10/1x15 rig I have, as well.
On gigs with really big PAs x"k"+ I'd put the combo on its stand and point it AT me (even) and, sweeet as, more than enough poke/volume. no complaints from others,...
cant reccomend them enough. lots of make available too..

[Ou7shined]

What matters is how it sounds out front. Walk out as far as your lead will let you, if it's screaming turn down. If it's just onstage that's the problem then tough... get the drummer to turn it down a notch then everyone will hear themselves fine. Often a crap onstage sound means a great FOH.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='701115' date='Jan 4 2010, 11:07 PM']I've used an amp stand for years




Means I can have it pointed right at my lugs and am able to point it away from my other band members so that its not too loud in their direction - although that's not going to be so easy now that i have an 8x10"[/quote]

But you're using that purely as your on-stage monitor by the looks of it? Can you also use the same approach while that cab is also your main bass output? I reckon my Barefaced Midget is small enough to fit on one of those stands.

And how come you get your own personal lighting rig?

[Bigwan]

I recently left a band that sounds nearly exactly the same as yours. I ended up using a Line6 Studio 110 (tilted towards my head) and a 1x10 powered monitor (for everything other than bass) - a bigger powered monitor and DI pedal would have done EXACTLY the same job, especially since our PA could do 3 separate monitor mixes. Our PA was up to the job for bass out front, but as everyone else has said if yours isn't then you could be in bother. Batter your guiturd player for being a typical banjo playing idiot. We found that even a 5watt valve amp was too loud on stage (we liked to keep it quiet - everything sounded better) so the guitar player ended up using a POD and powered monitor. Nobody noticed the difference out front, but it meant we weren't getting deafened - he started out using a fender twin!

[51m0n]

Just a quick point of order, bass does not get louder further away from the amp. It actually gets quieter like every other sound.

However a combination of getting more on axis with the amp bringing up more mids and highs, which your ear processes far better, and possible additive room nodes can certainly make it easier to hear when you arent standing over the cab.

All the advice to point the cab at your lugs is spot on. Get it way up at ear level!

Chances are a PA monitor wont even come close to handling bass, the guitarist should go through the PA (he needs a much lower wattage amp in all probability) his effects will work just fine, especially as most PA monitors will handle guitar just fine thank you very much. He is talking complete plop. I had the same battle with my guitarist for a good while, now he swears by it.

[thepurpleblob]

Throw away your rig. Use the Sansamp and invest in some in-ear monitors ??

I depp'd (sp?) a couple of time with a band that did just that. No backline. It was a bit weird but strangely liberating. They did have a 7.5KW PA though - which was frightening in a pub

Edited January 5, 2010 by thepurpleblob

[nottswarwick]

just been using my sansamp into my studio monitors, and on headphones. They are awesome bit of kit. 50/50 blend, everything at 12 'o clock, brilliant. I always take my feed to the PA from this DI out, it always sounds great, so then onstage monitoring is either my own rig, or just the wedges.

[chardbass]

[quote name='51m0n' post='701301' date='Jan 5 2010, 09:41 AM']Just a quick point of order, bass does not get louder further away from the amp. It actually gets quieter like every other sound.[/quote]

I think the point was that a few feet away from your cab the bass will be clearer than if you are standing over the cab.

Am I right in thinking that setting up in the [i]corner[/i] of a pub, the bass is always going to sound pretty hideous?

[Stewart]

[quote name='chardbass']...
Am I right in thinking that setting up in the [i]corner[/i] of a pub, the bass is always going to sound pretty hideous?[/quote]

I'd say it was invariably the best place to be, provided you're near enough to the walls

[Shaggy]

I’m a big fan of DI: conceded defeat on the “power race” within the band a couple of years back when we bought a 2.5kW PA with full mixer, crossover etc, and got a volunteer sound guy at the same time. My Ampeg SVT-2 / Mesa 2x15 rig could cope with it, but the sound guy was pushing hard for me to DI so he could control the mix, so I grudgingly gave it a go. Everything else miked; drums (x3 mics), guitar amps (x2).
I wanted to keep valves at the front end at least; so initially used an all-valve Retrospec Juice Box active DI also feeding into a small digital head (Yamaha BBT-500H) / 2x10 cab on an amp stand acting as a stage monitor; pumps out enough for the whole band to hear it on stage, which is crucial. Now using Molan’s old Eden VT-40 with built-in Demeter preamp; nice fat DI sound, bags of on-stage power (still with the 2x10 / amp stand), and almost as compact as the digital head. I probably get more good comments about the bass sound now than when backline-only – the PA definitely throws it deep into the audience and the crossover helps keep it defined.
Biggest beneficiary has definitely been my back! Transport easier too – all fits in the back of the crappy small family hatchback. The 2 guitarists are still using their 4x12 full stacks though even though they’re miked up, as it “looks right”!

[The Funk]

Point the amp towards the drummer and yourself - and not in the direction of the guitarist and singer.

Edited January 5, 2010 by The Funk

[jezzaboy]

Right, after reading all the views and having a think about it, here is the plan.....

I`m gonna keep my Eden and have ordered one of these:
[attachment=39423:90ad_35.jpg]

When it comes I will just watch the volume and stick on my long lead and see how it sounds. After I thought about it, why should I mess around just to suit the singer and guitarist. They will still moan anyway!

Cheers, Jez