Attendance Concerns

[Supernaut]

52 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

Of course!

 

You posted a stupid statement. Did you not expect to be taken to task for it?

How is it stupid? 

[Wolverinebass]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

 

Unless they are playing music that is only going to appeal to a very minority audience they must be doing something wrong. Maybe "headlining" before they have grown an audience that will support it. IMO until you have at least one album out that is selling and/or streaming well your band is not ready to headline a gig. You need to have 40-45 minutes of music that at least half the audience is going to be familiar with. 

 

The other thing is are they playing where the audiences are? These days for an unsigned or small-label band London is just another city with nothing that makes it any more or less special than any other city. Go where your audience is or at least where there are promotors for your genre. Otherwise you will end up playing the same few places to the same few people and run the possibility of outstaying your welcome.

What does streaming well entail? I'm curious now. Would say, getting under 100 monthly listeners suggest you should pack it in? 

 

I agree some bands are trying to run before they can walk, others, I would say the needle won't move for them and I don't believe that's because they're useless or have crap material, as they don't. I would say that's because not as many people go to live shows unless it's someone or something they know. A few do better out of London, others not.

 

If one can't find fans in London which has twice the population of Scotland, I think honestly anyone will have a hard time of it.

[Leonard Smalls]

In some places it's almost impossible to find an audience for an originals band...

Frinstance, round here there's no proper venues and folks don't seem want to come out  - I remember seeing an awesome prog band rather weirdly playing in my local boozer (I'm not really a prog fan, but these guys were just serious quality musicians). There were 4 of us in there and maybe 50 outside completely ignoring the band - it wasn't loud so that wasn't it. One of the outside folks actually came up to me and asked what they were like rather than staying and listening for himself.

As a result, any originals bands will never get a local audience because locals won't see anything they don't know already so it's a proper Catch 22.

However, when "Lady DJ" comes to the same pub to play all the hits it's absolutely rammed with drunken folks singing along to all those songs I can't stand.

 

[BigRedX]

9 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

In some places it's almost impossible to find an audience for an originals band...

Frinstance, round here there's no proper venues and folks don't seem want to come out  - I remember seeing an awesome prog band rather weirdly playing in my local boozer (I'm not really a prog fan, but these guys were just serious quality musicians). There were 4 of us in there and maybe 50 outside completely ignoring the band - it wasn't loud so that wasn't it. One of the outside folks actually came up to me and asked what they were like rather than staying and listening for himself.

As a result, any originals bands will never get a local audience because locals won't see anything they don't know already so it's a proper Catch 22.

However, when "Lady DJ" comes to the same pub to play all the hits it's absolutely rammed with drunken folks singing along to all those songs I can't stand.

 

As I said before, if your band isn't based somewhere where there is an audience for your music then you need to go and play places where there is. And if you're a band going to play an unknown venue out of town do some research to make sure that it has an audience and one that is likely to be appreciative of what you do. If you are not based in at least a decent sized town then it would be naive to expect much of a local audience for any originals band.

 

In the early days of The Terrortones after we'd called in a couple of favours due from Mr Venom's previous band, local gigs weren't that easy to come by. However there were plenty of venues and promotors in other parts of the country who wanted to put us on and were prepared to pay us enough to make the travelling worthwhile. It wasn't until we started putting on the monthly "Dick Venom Presents…" gigs where we would book someone better known in a compatible genre and play support that we started to build up a local following.

[BigRedX]

39 minutes ago, Wolverinebass said:

What does streaming well entail? I'm curious now. Would say, getting under 100 monthly listeners suggest you should pack it in? 

 

I agree some bands are trying to run before they can walk, others, I would say the needle won't move for them and I don't believe that's because they're useless or have crap material, as they don't. I would say that's because not as many people go to live shows unless it's someone or something they know. A few do better out of London, others not.

 

If one can't find fans in London which has twice the population of Scotland, I think honestly anyone will have a hard time of it.

 

My current band who are hardly a well-known Goth band manage an average of 2500 streams a month on Spotify alone. While that's split between 14 tracks about 75% of those streams come from our most popular 5 songs. I would suggest that we're not quite popular enough to headline without one or more other bands of at least an equivalent standing as support. 

[Dad3353]

Nevertheless, there are only so many venues, days (evenings...) of the week, and folk wanting to go out and listen to/watch a live band, and a fair number of original and covers bands, or multiple genres, courting those ever reducing number of slots. It would appear that the butter is being spread ever thinner on fewer slices; this trend is not likely to reverse, in the UK, soon. Just sayin'.

[Leonard Smalls]

12 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

you need to go and play places where there is

We'd kind of spotted that...

The nearest we play to home is Hereford (nearly an hour away) where we get a decent audience. However, if you just bimble a bit further into town there's a venue called Gordon Bennetts which gets absolutely rammed. And it's full of pissed up folks singing along to "Wonderwall" and the like. Those same people wouldn't dream of going to see a band they hadn't heard of in a grassroots venue because they wouldn't hear anything they knew, without realising that those same grassroots venues are the places that gave the likes of Oasis their first gigs.

[ricksterphil]

7 hours ago, Muzz said:

Ahhhh, NYE...generally ours have been positive, even better when the DJ says 'Can you finish and be off for 11:45 so I can do the countdown?' Of courrrrrse we can... 🙂

 

We did have one disaster, thanks to a promoter who we didn't use again (amazingly, that can be a two-way street), when we turned up to a £25 ticketed do at a Working Man's/Liberal/Con/Labour Club*, and by 'we' I mean our guitar/acoustic trio doing all sorts of stuff, to be greeted by the landlord/sec with a cheery 'Where's the f*cking rest of you?'. After explaining I was considered medically complete he informed us, with furious gesticulations at the promo signage, that he'd booked a 7-piece soul band, and the sellout crowd was expecting that. Attempts were made by both parties to contact said promoter (we hadn't had any contact directly with the landlord, so it was very clear who was to blame) but unsurprisingly he wasn't answering his phone. We set up and gave it a go for the first set, but it became immediately obvious that by the time drink had flowed in any greater quantity we'd be needing chicken wire a la Blues Brothers, and the DJ saved much further pain, embarassment and possibly violence by saying 'Pack up and get out, lads; I'll take it from here.' We were packed down and out the door by about ten. When we finally got hold of the promoter days later he was so embarassed (presumably after a biblical bollocking by the landlord) that he actually paid us in full.

 

One consolation on the night (other than the early finish) was the thought that somewhere a small pub was, presumably delightedly, squeezing in a 7-piece soul band they hadn't booked...

 

 

* I forget the exact flavour, but uniquely it was less than a mile from my house at the time...swings, roundabouts...

Great story.....👍

 

"After explaining I was considered medically complete...." 😂 

 

[BigRedX]

5 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

We'd kind of spotted that...

The nearest we play to home is Hereford (nearly an hour away) where we get a decent audience. However, if you just bimble a bit further into town there's a venue called Gordon Bennetts which gets absolutely rammed. And it's full of pissed up folks singing along to "Wonderwall" and the like. Those same people wouldn't dream of going to see a band they hadn't heard of in a grassroots venue because they wouldn't hear anything they knew, without realising that those same grassroots venues are the places that gave the likes of Oasis their first gigs.

 

The pissed up people singing along to Wonderwall are not your audience and probably wouldn't have been Oasis' audience either before they became famous. Also most of them would be equally happy singing along with a playlist or DJ as they would with a covers band. That's just a fact of life. It's pointless worrying about them and the venues they congregate in.

 

The fact that most musicians don't seem to have got, is that there is nothing extra special about live music per se. You are quite right that to typical pub goer wants something they know and if you are not going to supply that then if you want to be popular you have to be playing something reasonably catchy and give them something interesting to watch at the same time. Unsurprisingly that's not a bunch of middle-aged men staring at their instruments. You've also got to acknowledge that some genres are more popular at a grass-roots level than others and maybe decide if you want artistic integrity or popularity, and try a find a good compromise between the two.

 

When I was starting out gigging, I deliberately moved from somewhere with an almost zero live music scene to somewhere that was far more healthy from both a band and an audience member's PoV. I know that other people have different priorities. As I said life is full of compromises.

[Bluewine]

11 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

It's a complete myth that originals bands' gigs are poorly attended. Over the past 25 years the originals bands I have been in have had no problem attracting audiences.

 

And if they are it's down to the bands not being sufficiently entertaining musically or visually, and/or too disorganised or lazy to do the required promotion.

 

And in those cases they only have themselves to blame.

 

Would you agree that it depends on the type of originals band and the location? In my neck of the woods there's practically no originals scene. And what there is would come under the " not being sufficiently entertaining " category. 

 

Daryl

 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

Slightly the other end... I just saw Phil Campbell and the Bastard Sons who are finishing off a year playing 50 years of Motörhead sets to huge audiences across Europe with one if their "Welsh Weekenders". Tonight the biggest venue in Phil's hometown to a sold out 400 people. All credit to them there were two original support bands, both local (and very good).

 

It's amazing seeing a band who can play Wacken bring their professionaism to a small venue.

[Dad3353]

I'm pretty sure that I've mentioned this, in decades past, but...

There was a time, not so long ago, when roller skating was popular; so popular the roller rinks were established in every major, then minor, town and city, across much of the Western World. It had become an enormous industry, with its own galaxies of stars, local, national and international competitions. Times passes, and the roller rinks lose their popularity in favour of the novelty of Cinema, heightened when 'talkies' came about. This, too, had its day; many cinemas became Bingo halls, then carpet or furniture warehouse shops; there was a short period when slot-racing clubs sprang up, had their moment of glory, then faded away. Pubs and bars have evolved over the decades, too, with the piano in the corner, then pool tables, juke-boxes, 'live' music, karaoke... each making a bid for custom. It all changes, from generation to generation, and will continue to do so. What will the next 'fashion' be..? When will it come..? How long can the 'old' ways continue..? Some will not die out so easily (there are still folk hunting with kestrels for pleasure, and roller skates can still be bought...), but these, and all the others, become progressively more and more 'niche', and hold little interest for modern commercially-motivated organisations. It's nothing to fear, and is perfectly normal; each generation has its day, then its twilight. For rock'n'roll, it's getting pretty dark. 

[Staggering on]

1 hour ago, Dad3353 said:

I'm pretty sure that I've mentioned this, in decades past, but...

There was a time, not so long ago, when roller skating was popular; so popular the roller rinks were established in every major, then minor, town and city, across much of the Western World. It had become an enormous industry, with its own galaxies of stars, local, national and international competitions. Times passes, and the roller rinks lose their popularity in favour of the novelty of Cinema, heightened when 'talkies' came about. This, too, had its day; many cinemas became Bingo halls, then carpet or furniture warehouse shops; there was a short period when slot-racing clubs sprang up, had their moment of glory, then faded away. Pubs and bars have evolved over the decades, too, with the piano in the corner, then pool tables, juke-boxes, 'live' music, karaoke... each making a bid for custom. It all changes, from generation to generation, and will continue to do so. What will the next 'fashion' be..? When will it come..? How long can the 'old' ways continue..? Some will not die out so easily (there are still folk hunting with kestrels for pleasure, and roller skates can still be bought...), but these, and all the others, become progressively more and more 'niche', and hold little interest for modern commercially-motivated organisations. It's nothing to fear, and is perfectly normal; each generation has its day, then its twilight. For rock'n'roll, it's getting pretty dark. 

 

Not just rock'n'roll, almost every type of live music has the same problems with attendance. Of course I am not including the huge stadium and arena concerts by the big stars, I'm referring to the smaller venues that most of us play in.

[Dad3353]

38 minutes ago, Staggering on said:

Not just rock'n'roll, almost every type of live music has the same problems with attendance. Of course I am not including the huge stadium and arena concerts by the big stars, I'm referring to the smaller venues that most of us play in.

 

Yes, I was using it more as a generic term. I think that, in time, and not so far away, even those stadiums will fade away, maybe even the sports they were originally built for. We'll see in the next half-century or so (well, some of us, maybe...). 

[The fasting showman]

9 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

 

Yes, I was using it more as a generic term. I think that, in time, and not so far away, even those stadiums will fade away, maybe even the sports they were originally built for. We'll see in the next half-century or so (well, some of us, maybe...). 

I'm inclined to agree that there is an end of an era feel I'm personally getting about popular music and pop culture. 

 

Highly subjective of course; one yardstick I have is being a father to a 15 year old whilst being in my mid '50s. I can't articulate it well enough but somehow popular music isn't doing the job it did in the lives of kids compared to my own childhood. Whether that's right or wrong I've no idea.

 

There seems to be other things competing for their attention. I think a lot of things relating to music; audio equipment, subtle sound quality and fetishing vintage gear may soon have no relevance to the Tik Tok generation.  

 

Back to live music and working pub covers bands, many of them I've played with have had an 'it'll do' attitude to the renditions of songs. That and long sound checks with ear splitting feedback. It's not a great sales pitch.

 

Where I live it's not a scene I want to rush back into.

 

 

[ezbass]

56 minutes ago, The fasting showman said:

Highly subjective of course; one yardstick I have is being a father to a 15 year old whilst being in my mid '50s. I can't articulate it well enough but somehow popular music isn't doing the job it did in the lives of kids compared to my own childhood. Whether that's right or wrong I've no idea.

One gets the feeling that popular music doesn’t mean as much these days as it once did, when we were younger. It’s more of a background thing that accompanies something else you’re doing. However, that’s viewing it from a musician’s point of view and, perhaps, it was ever thus and we’re not seeing it from the right perspective. Lady Ez, for instance, likes music certainly, but can rarely, if ever, recall the lyrics to a song or hum the tune. She is not a muso and is probably subjected to more music than she would if I didn’t play or was an enthusiast.

[Dan Dare]

4 hours ago, ezbass said:

One gets the feeling that popular music doesn’t mean as much these days as it once did, when we were younger. It’s more of a background thing that accompanies something else you’re doing. However, that’s viewing it from a musician’s point of view and, perhaps, it was ever thus and we’re not seeing it from the right perspective. Lady Ez, for instance, likes music certainly, but can rarely, if ever, recall the lyrics to a song or hum the tune. She is not a muso and is probably subjected to more music than she would if I didn’t play or was an enthusiast.

 

It seems pop music has become more something people consume, as opposed to something they aspire to create themselves. I suppose that's inevitable, given the corporate takeover of much pop music.

Edited October 4 by Dan Dare

[Steve Browning]

An interesting contribution to a Facebook thread (not from me, I should add) that has relevance ot us here.

 

I’d just like to chip in my views on all of this, as I hold some pretty strong opinions on the state of things right now. I’m both a hospitality consultant and a musician that plays across the UK, so I can see the issues on both sides. I feel this gives me a fairly balanced take on the problems, though I do think the blame rests mostly with venue operators.

1st issue:

Many venues book the band but then expect the band to do everything. The ones that offer ticket split type shows are the worst for not promoting anything. They already have their captive audience, but it has to be a team effort when it comes to marketing.

2nd issue:

You have to spend money on promotions. Gone are the days where a crappy poster and a couple of Facebook posts were enough. The time has to go into it. We’ve played around 30-40 gigs this year and most of them have sold out. The common denominator is that both the venue and ourselves have spent money on sponsored posts and time on content. That’s the world we live in now. A crappy Facebook event isn’t bringing anyone that wasn’t already going to come. This should be agreed and decided at the point of booking - it pays dividends on the night.

3rd issue:

If it’s a fixed fee, the venue and band should decide what’s being spent on marketing, and that should be factored into any payments or costs. For covers and tribute bands, the best policy is usually for the venue or promoter to head up marketing. It makes the biggest difference as they have the captive audience in their area.

4th issue:

Venues need to understand that bands aren’t cheap and stop mugging people off. It’s often a 10-12 hour day including travel. £300 between six people should not happen. Bands also need to stop selling themselves short for £5 an hour. If a venue can’t afford to pay a band properly, they need to rethink their goals - book solo acts, duos, or DJs instead who are better quality. If you’re getting £300 bands, no wonder nobody’s coming. It’s because they’re probably shit and you’ve built a rep for having mediocre bands

5th issue:

We can’t change the world, so we have to live with it as it is. Stop trying to run pubs like it’s 1970. It’s a digital world now. If you can’t get on board with socials as a pub manager, employ a company to do it all - otherwise you will inevitably fail.

6th issue:

I wouldn’t worry too much about pubs having gigs listed on their website. Most pub websites get very few views aside from people checking opening times and menus. It’s handy as a ticket outlet with direct links from socials, but that’s about it. Socials are the absolute decider in whether venues fill or not.

Lastly, for bands:

Work on actually creating a brand and image for yourselves. Don’t just be another dad rock band or claim to be the number one tribute. Put some effort into creating something memorable that stands out and stop accepting shitty gigs. Be more selective about who you work with and where you play - it all adds to your image. The first thing I look at before booking anyone is where else they’ve played. If it’s a bunch of skanky, run down pubs that are on their last legs, I’m probably going to look elsewhere.

In short, both sides have got lazy or are too stubborn to move with the times. Both must.

Formula for a dead night:

Shit band + no promotion.

Cost to average size venue: the band and

Running at 50% capacity. Let’s say a venue can take £6k on the bar on a busy night - you lose £300 on a cheap band and miss out on £3k of sales.

Gross for the night: £2.7k (without other factors or overcomplicating it).

Formula to sell the place out:

Fairly decent band (£800) + £200 on marketing.

Venue at 100% capacity.

Gross for the night: £5k. Even more if it’s ticketed. Plus a growing rep for having the best bands around on.

Why venues don’t understand these simple maths is beyond me. There’s no excuse.

If a venue says “Even if I promote it, it doesn’t work”, then either you’re promoting it wrong, or your venue is already past the point of no return and you probably need to start thinking of a plan B.