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Visa free touring in EU.

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I was just about to post the same article. And yes; they have no idea at all.

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Well, they dropped the ball on that one!

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Non UK artists won't bother touring in the UK either, if they have to jump through multiple, expensive hoops.

Festivals will have to make do with UK artists, which may not appeal to the punters. I do know that when the pound went down the toilet, after the referendum, festivals were struggling to afford decent overseas acts. This is another nail in the coffin.

Edited by gjones
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35 minutes ago, nikon F said:

well if you believe everything you read in the newspapers

So you're saying that because it's in a newspaper it isn't true?

Or that because it's in this newspaper it isn't true?

It appears wholly consistent with the Government's rather rabid and dogmatic "Sovereignty at all costs (especially if it means cutting off our noses to spite our Empire-bred, beautifully proud British faces!)" mantra!

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6 hours ago, gjones said:

Non UK artists won't bother touring in the UK either, if they have to jump through multiple, expensive hoops.

Festivals will have to make do with UK artists, which may not appeal to the punters. I do know that when the pound went down the toilet, after the referendum, festivals were struggling to afford decent overseas acts. This is another nail in the coffin.

Larger bands won't be troubled too much as they will already do all the necessary when they tour outside the EU. 

It's bands like mine that will be worst hit. We wouldn't earn enough to make it worthwhile. 

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29 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

So you're saying that because it's in a newspaper it isn't true?

Or that because it's in this newspaper it isn't true?

It appears wholly consistent with the Government's rather rabid and dogmatic "Sovereignty at all costs (especially if it means cutting off our noses to spite our Empire-bred, beautifully proud British faces!)" mantra!

I may be a naive fool, but I think they really just didn't quite get it right on this (and the s/h instruments market, discussed in other threads); after all, the agreement document is loads of pages of gobbledegook.

I don't think the agreement was intended to put minor musicians out of business, nor stifle the 2nd-hand market.

They probably spent so long wrangling over fishing rights and NI that they didn't go down into this aspect of the minutiae.

Writing to your MP should help bring the matter to their attention and maybe move towards getting things put right.

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58 minutes ago, prowla said:

They probably spent so long wrangling over fishing rights and NI that they didn't go down into this aspect of the minutiae.

It doesn’t seem this way.

The EU offered a “standard” exemption for 90 days, both ways.

The UK said it can only be 30 days (certainly for EU performers coming this way).

The EU said “90 days or nothing”.

The UK said “nothing then”.

End if negotiations.

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39 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

Not my MP! He's a government apologist who only ever quotes the party line and doesn't engage beyond that! (I've tried...)

And I'm not sure about it being a simple oversight; allowing work visa free touring for British musicians would mean a reciprocal arrangement for EU ones. And the last thing they want is Poor Johnny Foreigner (as opposed to Rich Jonathan Foreignperson) coming over here, playing our small music venues, entertaining small crowds and not generating large sums of money. 

I think a 90-day permission sort of arrangement should be simple enough (and nothing to do with Johnny-Foreigner invading good old Blighty, or anything like that).

As things stand, the "free trade" deal doesn't quite seem to be quite what it says on the tin, so they'll be needing to do some revisions of it.

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2 minutes ago, floFC said:

It doesn’t seem this way.

The EU offered a “standard” exemption for 90 days, both ways.

The UK said it can only be 30 days (certainly for EU performers coming this way).

The EU said “90 days or nothing”.

The UK said “nothing then”.

End if negotiations.

In that case, the EU were right, on this occasion.

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26 minutes ago, prowla said:

I think a 90-day permission sort of arrangement should be simple enough (and nothing to do with Johnny-Foreigner invading good old Blighty, or anything like that).

As things stand, the "free trade" deal doesn't quite seem to be quite what it says on the tin, so they'll be needing to do some revisions of it.

Agreed. The UK will need to loosen their strict 30 days rule for this particular scenario. Given the value of the music industry, and with a bit of lobbying (as you mentioned previously), it should be possible.

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As could have been (and was) said at the start of this debacle, the degree to which we defend our shores from 'them out there' is the degree to which we imprison ourselves within them.

It's a bizarre notion of fairness to negotiate that both sides get the poorer outcome, but that is a point that could have been (and was) made at the start of this debacle.

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18 minutes ago, floFC said:

Agreed. The UK will need to loosen their strict 30 days rule for this particular scenario. Given the value of the music industry, and with a bit of lobbying (as you mentioned previously), it should be possible.

I'm mentally drafting a letter to my MP...

There will be a number of revisits/clarifications to the agreement over these coming months.

Fortunately, the actual impact of such restrictions is minimal at this precise moment, due to the virus situation, so there is time to get it sorted.

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14 minutes ago, Jus Lukin said:

As could have been (and was) said at the start of this debacle, the degree to which we defend our shores from 'them out there' is the degree to which we imprison ourselves within them.

It's a bizarre notion of fairness to negotiate that both sides get the poorer outcome, but that is a point that could have been (and was) made at the start of this debacle.

Completely pulling up the drawbridge and cutting off communication is certainly not the answer, that's for sure.

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2 minutes ago, prowla said:

Completely pulling up the drawbridge and cutting off communication is certainly not the answer, that's for sure.

Nice analogy. It's like a seige- only backwards!

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3 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

Larger bands won't be troubled too much as they will already do all the necessary when they tour outside the EU. 

It's bands like mine that will be worst hit. We wouldn't earn enough to make it worthwhile. 

Unfortunately there are a hell of a lot of musicians in this country in the same position as you. 

Edited by peteb
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I’m a tad unsure on this re musicians being able to play within the constraints, where the UK wanted a 30 day limit, the EU 90 days. Would any of us on here have found the 30 day limit to be unworkable for their bands. 

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5 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I’m a tad unsure on this re musicians being able to play within the constraints, where the UK wanted a 30 day limit, the EU 90 days. Would any of us on here have found the 30 day limit to be unworkable for their bands. 

For us, maybe not. I would imagine that there could well be an issue for dancers, classical musicians or those playing on longer term engagements (shows, etc). 

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I'm sure there are plenty of Summer residency & cruise ship types who stay in Europe longer than 30 days per year.

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Yeah I get that Pete, it was more my inquisitive nature to see if any of us were fortunate enough to be in bands that did such long tours (as that usually is an indication of success).

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7 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Would any of us on here have found the 30 day limit to be unworkable for their bands. 

The point appears to be that the EU offered their "Standard" 90 day visa exemption that's presumably offered to other countries, British gov turned it down because they were being rabidly dogmatic about ending any form of free movement, then tried to pretend they'd tried to negotiate a better deal (30 better than 90 days?).

From the NME:

“It is usually in our agreements with third countries, that [work] visas are not required for musicians,” an EU source told the paper. “We tried to include it, but the UK said no.”

The UK are reported to have turned down the offer because they do not want to give the same freedoms to EU artists visiting the UK.

A government spokesperson previously told NME that it was Brussels that had rejected the idea of allowing artists to tour the EU on a visa-free basis. “The UK pushed for a more ambitious agreement with the EU on the temporary movement of business travellers, which would have covered musicians and others, but our proposals were rejected by the EU,” they said.

However, the Independent’s source said: “The UK refused to agree because they said they were ending freedom of movement. It is untrue to say they asked for something more ambitious.”

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1 minute ago, Lozz196 said:

Yeah I get that Pete, it was more my inquisitive nature to see if any of us were fortunate enough to be in bands that did such long tours (as that usually is an indication of success).

As Doctor J has just pointed out, this will also apply to those of us who work cruise ships, holiday seasons and other longer term residencies, etc. 

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As I think many people are finding out, what they saw advertised and what actually arrived are two quite different things. It’s like buying a villa on the Côte d’Azur, and ending up with a rickety old caravan overlooking a sewage works. Though many are quite understandably in denial, insisting that this is exactly what they wanted. 

I’ve been incredibly lucky, and performed at some marvellous events in Europe. These are small events, and just don’t have the budget to cover the increased expenditure. It works the other way too, there are some incredibly talented artists now precluded from touring in the UK.

I’ve also been fortunate to have been given the chance to do talks on and present my PhD work abroad. This too has now ended, unless your field of study falls into a very limited area, then you need a work permit. My university’s music department just can’t afford it.

I find the whole thing utterly depressing and tbh, rather pointless. 

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