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Tried listening to Yes today.....

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21 hours ago, ead said:

Did CS ever record with that green Mouradian bass or was just just for the live shows?

I was always under the impression he used the Mouradian on Owner Of A Lonely Heart, and articles like this seem to support that. I think I can hear it on Big Generator tracks like I’m Running. 

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1 hour ago, prowla said:

What a one-dimensional viewpoint that music is only valid if you can dance to it. 

I can only listen to dance artists like Ornette Coleman, Derek Bailey, and The Decoding Society...

 

 

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To be fair, if you really want to you can dance to absolutely anything (*)

 

*obviously not Yes 🙂

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30 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

To be fair, if you really want to you can dance to absolutely anything (*)

Amazing what drugs you can get isn't it?

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The only good thing about having had to work in my living room for seven months is that I can have the radio on all day...usually Planet Rock, with little detours into Classic FM when certain people come on... I've heard a few things by assorted artists that I might not have otherwise done when I was only catching PR for the odd 20 minutes here and there; Yes being a prime example, to the extent I might just go and grab an album or two of theirs at some point

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50 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

To be fair, if you really want to you can dance to absolutely anything (*)

 

*obviously not Yes 🙂

 

Maybe, but that's still rubbish (although the 'dancing' seems to be inspired by something...). Anyone can plonk away like that, even a racing pigeon or a toy robot. That's not 'music'; that's taking the Mickey, taking the money, and taking over a stage under false pretentiousness. -_-

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4 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Maybe, but that's still rubbish (although the 'dancing' seems to be inspired by something...). Anyone can plonk away like that, even a racing pigeon or a toy robot. That's not 'music'; that's taking the Mickey, taking the money, and taking over a stage under false pretentiousness. -_-

Or as it is known, Derek Bailey at his best.

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@Dad3353 and others,

I don't know how serious people's comments on Derek Bailey are, but just in case:

Bailey famously could play any style a lot better than almost anyone. I've heard him do some of it.
He was a monster.
It just so happened that he preferred playing his style. He knew exactly what he was doing, and taking the mickey was not part of it.
He was also able to hear people play, also within his often ridiculed style, and on the spot analyse what they'd done and exactly how that was weak or strong.
I've never met anyone as capable as he was, and I've met dozens of the very best musicians on the planet.

You may not like what he did, but I guarantee you that's not because you're somehow "better" or "more musical" than he was. There are many mediocre people on this planet. Bailey was not one.

Rant over.

 

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1 hour ago, BassTractor said:

@Dad3353 and others,...

Respect; you have your reasons for posting this, and that's fine. All I see is the 'evidence' I see. My 'knowledge' and meager experience leads me to believe, possibly falsely, that the bloke's playing nothing of any value, excepting, if I'm being generous, to himself. He may be a quiet genius, but he's not showing any sign of that to me. He doesn't have to, naturally; he does (as I do...) exactly what he wants, and needs no permission, from me nor anyone else. What I've seen and heard doesn't incite me to look further, or deeper. I've some affinity with 'free' stuff , and enjoyed Ron Gleeson concerts, or Pete Brown in his day, but until and unless I see something different, my opinion of this fellow remains. If others enjoy his work, that's fine. I'll need a lot more convincing, and I've not that many decades left for that to happen. Sorry, but it's not for me. Kudos for defending his work; and, I repeat: respect. 

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4 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

My 'knowledge' and meager experience leads me to believe, possibly falsely, that the bloke's playing nothing of any value, excepting, if I'm being generous, to himself. He may be a quiet genius, but he's not showing any sign of that to me.

Thing with Derek was that he wasn't exactly looking for chart success... No Owner of a Lonely Heart for him!

But as this thread shows, folks like all sorts of stuff; and while I don't like Yes I'd be much more likely to be able to play like them than like Derek, simply because, despite their obvious skill, it's not too difficult to see where they're coming from.

With Derek it's just "WTF? "

I got into him through his most accessible (probably) album; famously, when he walked into the recording session Jamaaladeen Tacuma greeted him saying "hey Derek, let's Funk!"... 

 

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9 hours ago, Bilbo said:

Music is only valid if you CAN'T dance to it  😀

 

Head-banging is a form of dance :laugh1:

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39 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

Head-banging is a form of dance :laugh1:

I suppose wandering around in a trance-like state with your arms in the air is too...

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8 hours ago, BassTractor said:

I don't know how serious people's comments on Derek Bailey are, but just in case:

Bailey famously could play any style a lot better than almost anyone. I've heard him do some of it.

A link to any of that would be good, I have never heard him play anything that to me sounding like anything I would consider musical.

 

8 hours ago, BassTractor said:

You may not like what he did, but I guarantee you that's not because you're somehow "better" or "more musical" than he was. There are many mediocre people on this planet. Bailey was not one.

Not a question of who is better. I have heard several things by him and to me I hear nothing musical. That is obviously (due to the amount of people who do like him) what is musical to him (or you) is not the same to me.

There are certainly lots of things I don't like which I can accept as musical, so I am not sure it is a taste thing. I have only really heard that and his stuff with david sylvian (although I don't listen to most of those tracks).

I fully agree with Dads response there.

2 hours ago, Leonard Smalls said:

Thing with Derek was that he wasn't exactly looking for chart success... No Owner of a Lonely Heart for him!

Clearly not.

2 hours ago, Leonard Smalls said:

I got into him through his most accessible (probably) album; famously, when he walked into the recording session Jamaaladeen Tacuma greeted him saying "hey Derek, let's Funk!"...

If that is his most accessible stuff, then there isn't a condition I could get into where I will view any what he produces musical.

Obviously, doesn't mean he isn't, or that it is invalid, or someone else can't like it but it is just not something I can actually listen to.

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12 hours ago, bnt said:

I was always under the impression he used the Mouradian on Owner Of A Lonely Heart, and articles like this seem to support that. I think I can hear it on Big Generator tracks like I’m Running. 

Mouradian pops up here, about 20 minutes in. But you should watch all of it. There's far too much to unpack from this video than I could ever cover in a single post. But ... the HAIR

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, toneknob said:

Mouradian pops up here, about 20 minutes in. But you should watch all of it. There's far too much to unpack from this video than I could ever cover in a single post. But ... the HAIR

 

Nice to see that Chris & the host (who I've just realised is Bob Birch) clearly had a nice early night in preparation for a day's work on the video.

Edited by wateroftyne
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I went to see them in concert a few years ago and Chris Squire was still alive, they had a different singer though. I was very impressed by their musicianship but it seemed very self indulgent. Apart from a few of the hits I found it a bit tiresome. My buddy was late arriving to the gig at the start of one song he left the venue to get a bag of fish and chips, when he returned they were still on the same song, true story.   

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1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

due to the amount of people who do like him

There must be at least 20 of us, worldwide! 😁

I remember seeing him years ago, at the Barbican, supporting Bill Laswell (who had Dave Lombardo on drums). There was some hilarious bemusement from large parts of the audience when Derek played - he did his trademark thang, with a DJ and keyboardist who did similar stuff. The bemusement continued as the obvious Slayer fans tried to reconcile Lombardo's double kick assault with Bill's crazed but groovy bass and the absolute racket that saxman John Zorn produced...

It showed that many rock fans tend toward the conservative and catholic when it comes to owt really different! I'm not saying that's bad, just that the majority of folks don't like anything that too-out-of-their-comfort-zone. As my dad said "I like what I know and I know what I like!" (he was a skiffle man)

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Quote

 just that the majority of folks don't like tuneless nonsense

Fixed it for ya 😄

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

Respect; you have your reasons for posting this, and that's fine. All I see is the 'evidence' I see. My 'knowledge' and meager experience leads me to believe, possibly falsely, that the bloke's playing nothing of any value, excepting, if I'm being generous, to himself. He may be a quiet genius, but he's not showing any sign of that to me. He doesn't have to, naturally; he does (as I do...) exactly what he wants, and needs no permission, from me nor anyone else. What I've seen and heard doesn't incite me to look further, or deeper. I've some affinity with 'free' stuff , and enjoyed Ron Gleeson concerts, or Pete Brown in his day, but until and unless I see something different, my opinion of this fellow remains. If others enjoy his work, that's fine. I'll need a lot more convincing, and I've not that many decades left for that to happen. Sorry, but it's not for me. Kudos for defending his work; and, I repeat: respect. 

Thanks for responding, Dad.
I have no problem at all with "it's not for me" attitudes and posts. I do admittedly have a problem with "anybody can do this" and "taking the mickey" attitudes and posts.

Some time ago, I relayed how both B.B. King and a famous Norse traditional folk musician expressed basically the same story: when their fans asked them what they themselves were inspired by, and they answered faithfully, those fans would respond: "What? That's not blues/tradfolk!".
They both told the interviewer: "but it is! It's just more demanding, and it doesn't inspire the people who listen to me, but it does inspire me."

IOW here as in other segments of life, there are pyramids, if you will, in understanding and being inspired by etc, and B.B. King and that Norseman both reckoned there were people they could learn something from within the styles they themselves were famous for, but whose music would be a bit demanding for their own fans.

To me this sounds not only reasonable but obvious. I for one am not inspired by Riemann setting up a few hypotheses. I was inspired by my secondary school math teacher. No way though I'll ever say that anybody can do what Riemann did, and that he was taking the mickey. BTW, people did exactly the latter when Einstein proposed his stuff.


BTW, my laptop still only gives me sound maybe once every 20 days, so I've not heard the youtube vids posted earlier. Maybe I'd agree he's taking the mickey in one of those. Can't imagine it though. I believe Bailey was a very serious person - to the degree that being together with him wasn't that much fun.

Edited by BassTractor
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23 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

Nice to see that Chris & the host clearly had a nice early night in preparation for a day's work on the video.

You would need an early night to get up early for the hair :D

 

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24 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

Nice to see that Chris & the host clearly had a nice early night in preparation for a day's work on the video.

Sadly I feel too many of these nights cost Squire his health

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1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

A link to any of that would be good, I have never heard him play anything that to me sounding like anything I would consider musical.

 

Not a question of who is better.


My guess is there is no link. At least in my days, he was famously wary of playing other stuff in front of audiences or microphones. But in a room with a few other musicians, he'd do it.

As to the "better", I was tired and sleepy, and couldn't find a better word.
See my post about pyramids above. Just because one doesn't like something, that something isn't necessarily below one's own level.
Picasso's another good example. No, not everyone "can do that". People not being able to discern between a kid's drawing and Picasso think so, but they're wrong. They basically are unable and unaware (Dunning-Kruger effect), and deem themselves "better" in that they are smart and see through the smokescreen.
Nope. They're unable, and they are arrogant. Not that they can be blamed for this.

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4 minutes ago, BassTractor said:

My guess is there is no link. At least in my days, he was famously wary of playing other stuff in front of audiences or microphones. But in a room with a few other musicians, he'd do it.

So its a 'you had to be there' thing?

4 minutes ago, BassTractor said:

See my post about pyramids above. Just because one doesn't like something, that something isn't necessarily below one's own level.

There is no link that I see between liking something and views on their level. I dislike Jaco, I couldn't listen to any of it, but he is clearly so far above my level that I would need to practice for my life to be like him on a bad day. Ditto quite a lot of jazz, or virtuoso guitarists, or Opera.

My views on this are nothing to do with not liking.

4 minutes ago, BassTractor said:

Picasso's another good example. No, not everyone "can do that". People not being able to discern between a kid's drawing and Picasso think so, but they're wrong. They basically are unable and unaware (Dunning-Kruger effect), and deem themselves "better" in that they are smart and see through the smokescreen.

Maybe not the best examples, as both with the maths and the Picasso, I can understand what I don't understand about advanced maths, and I know I couldn't do picasso even if I tried, although there is other art that people value that I see little value or ability in. Allthough with the art world I realise there are some artists that people don't see the value in until they are told that it is important. Obviously it can mean something to others.

For me, If quizzed I would not be able to tell the difference between Derek Bailey and a 3 year old child who found a guitar in a cupboard,  in that I completely fail to see the ability or the art.

I understand that something can be so far outside my sphere of perception that I cannnot even begin to see it, so this could be entirely my issue. Or it could be an emporers new clothes or it could be just a big windup to persuade people there is something there. I litterally have no way of telling.

So, for me, he has absolutely no value as an artist (and again note, this isn't love or hate - I see that Kanye West has value as an artist, even if I dislike what he does), but that has absolutely no bearing on how it is percieved by someone else or anything anyone else has to care about.

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