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The FRFR Option


frannie01

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15 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

Now I realise I’m almost certainly an exception here but when I buy a bass, second hand or new, I don’t amplify it, I listen to it acoustically, when I like a bass and subsequently buy it, that acoustic sound is what I’m looking for when amplified, uncoloured, just (obviously) louder! 

We’re both exceptions then Frank. I know it’s supposed to be all about PUPs and circuit, but that unplugged tone says it all about a bass. I always put my chin against the upper horn to check how well the body resonates as well 

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Thanks Bill.  I'll never know if I made the most optimal decision in purchasing the 732 over the 712, since only after using the 732 in real life for many months did I know for sure it could do everything I needed it to.  I'm not about to repeat that experiment for the 712 but if someone else could volunteer (who is in exactly the same scenarios as I find myself in) I would be interested to know the results.

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I might be.  I now go through the pa for the 2 bands I'm in so am considering changing my cab/head rig for one of these as it is only really for rehearsals and the 'odd' gig when i don't go through pa.  The difference in cost is fairly significant - £620 vs £400.

But then you get what you pay for....

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1 hour ago, jrixn1 said:

Thanks Bill.  I'll never know if I made the most optimal decision in purchasing the 732 over the 712, since only after using the 732 in real life for many months did I know for sure it could do everything I needed it to.  I'm not about to repeat that experiment for the 712 but if someone else could volunteer (who is in exactly the same scenarios as I find myself in) I would be interested to know the results.

I don't know about being the same boat but both the drivers are changed, I'd imagine the bass driver will probably have a bigger magnet and allow for improvements in excursion and maybe control over the cone. The specs show a 3dB increase in total output which will be determined mainly by the ability of the bass driver to handle bass excursion. Both systems seem to have the same amp but both will be throttled back by the onboard processing the 712 slightly more so. You've got a better speaker :)

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7 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

The load on a woofer at 1600Hz is roughly 1/16th what it is at 100Hz, so dropping the crossover to 700Hz won't make an appreciable difference where that's concerned. The midrange dispersion angle of a twelve at 1600Hz is roughly half what it is at 700Hz, so from that standpoint the lower crossover is highly advantageous. They can only do that by using a compression driver capable of going to 700Hz.

The dispersion angle of a 12" driver is about 90-degrees. So you're not going to increase the dispersion below that frequency using a 90-degree horn. In fact, you'll limit it to 90-degrees down to 700Hz. At least in theory. The horn on that speaker doesn't look big enough to maintain its dispersion down to 700Hz.

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16 hours ago, jrixn1 said:

Thanks Bill.  I'll never know if I made the most optimal decision in purchasing the 732 over the 712, since only after using the 732 in real life for many months did I know for sure it could do everything I needed it to.  I'm not about to repeat that experiment for the 712 but if someone else could volunteer (who is in exactly the same scenarios as I find myself in) I would be interested to know the results.

I borrowed one of our PA tops to use a wedge for a gig that had supplied PA. The 712 wasn't enough for me. My gut feeling is that there is quite a gap between the 712 and the 732.

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On 27/02/2020 at 00:46, Frank Blank said:

I play through a HX Stomp into a QSC K12.2, much as I like playing around with the Stomp I mainly use it for a touch of compression and really small eq tweaks. What always surprises me is just how superb the basses sound plugged directly into the QSC. I spend decades looking for bass amps that reproduced the sound of the bass without adding or subtracting any colour. Now I realise I’m almost certainly an exception here but when I buy a bass, second hand or new, I don’t amplify it, I listen to it acoustically, when I like a bass and subsequently buy it, that acoustic sound is what I’m looking for when amplified, uncoloured, just (obviously) louder! The QSC is the only amplification solution that has ever given me this. I use The Stomps sims sometimes with my short scale fretless simply to get a tone near to that of an upright bass but again I find it difficult to beat the sound that I get directly plugged in. The Stomp has so many variables to tweak that I’ve barely scratched the surface but then the quality of the sounds just plugging in the basses directly is so good I’m in no hurry!

That’s exactly the info I was searching for.I’m finding it a little difficult deciding wether or not to get rid of my gear now as it will be a complete change for me 

Do you still have your separates?

 

 Thanks 

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4 hours ago, frannie01 said:

That’s exactly the info I was searching for.I’m finding it a little difficult deciding wether or not to get rid of my gear now as it will be a complete change for me 

Do you still have your separates?

 Thanks 

No. All I have is the above rig. If you want to try mine out just say and we can sort something out.

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3 hours ago, Paul S said:

I've taken the plunge and just ordered the RCF Art- 732, selling off all my old stuff.  Here goes!  :)   

It will be fine. I bought a RCF 715 about 6 months ago and it`s working out fine. The guitarist ( a devout Marshall tube combo user ) can`t get his head around it though!

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  • 1 month later...
On 20/02/2020 at 10:31, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Cars get a major bass response boost from Cabin Gain, also known as Pressure Vessel gain. So do headphones. It's the reason why they give good bass when tight to the ears but it disappears when they're pulled away.

I thought it was due to resonance from where my brain should be! LOL

Edited by BassmanPaul
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I've been happy with my Acme B2 cabinets. I have four but only use two to gig with. They are a 2x10 box and I stack a pair for a vertical 4x10.  The way they handle the Low B of my sixes is a pure delight!! :)

Edited by BassmanPaul
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  • 1 year later...

Very relevant post I think given the emerging trend towards modeling equipment. Current FRFR equipment offered in the marker tends to roll off at 70 Hz. Indeed as stated below FRFR sound reproduction from the listeners perspective is the combination of what the power amplification&speaker produces AND how these are affected by the room/venue (resonant modes etc). As a guitarist who uses modeling, and since recent started to play 5S-bass, and as an engineer audiophile who likes building speakers, disatisfied by current FRFR products available, I am currently building compact active (1200W) FRFR monitors containing a coaxial FR driver and 2x10” subwoofers crossed over at 100Hz, which can truly provide FRFR from 30Hz - 20kHz and where DSP presets offer different profiles to either optimize for ‘flatness’ and different room modes upto min 110dB SPL or if needed for life use gain additional SPL flat from 40Hz upward. As stated below FRFR’s benefit is mostly that offers a consistent platform to amplify front end setups of effects, amps, and cabinet types produced by the modeler. For large venues typically you will augment with PA sound system and sound engineers love to just get the DI signal to throw in their mix to FOH. Let me know if you are interested to learn more about the design of my ‘extended bass’ FRFR monitor, which solution currently is simply not on offer in the market.

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On 27/02/2020 at 16:53, jrixn1 said:

Thanks Bill.  I'll never know if I made the most optimal decision in purchasing the 732 over the 712, since only after using the 732 in real life for many months did I know for sure it could do everything I needed it to.  I'm not about to repeat that experiment for the 712 but if someone else could volunteer (who is in exactly the same scenarios as I find myself in) I would be interested to know the results.

 

John - does the RCF 732A Mk4 handle a low B well? I note that it has a frequency range floor of 50Hz, so should be able to cope with the first harmonic of the low B (i.e. 62Hz) comfortably and I'm cool with the sub 40Hz boom-ville / sub-audio range not being prominent anyway.

 

We've been using RCF 310As, since we started up, for vocals, sax and acoustic guitar. It's been great and very lightweight and compact. But if the 732A can handle 5 string bass, we could stick the bass and electric guitar through the PA and use the 310As as monitors and get a better overall balance to our FOH sound. Might even start making use of our RCF 702 which we got shortly before lockdown and which has had a very easy ride of things since then! 

 

Edited by Al Krow
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1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

 

John - does the RCF 732A Mk4 handle a low B well? I note that it has a frequency range floor of 50Hz, so should be able to cope with the first harmonic of the low B (i.e. 62Hz) comfortably and I'm cool with the sub 40Hz boom-ville / sub-audio range not being prominent anyway.

 

Yes, I'm really happy with my RCF 732A at loud volume with a five-string bass.  RCF's marketing says it goes down to 50Hz, but I add a high-pass filter at 60Hz anyway.

 

7 hours ago, BassFRFR said:

the design of my ‘extended bass’ FRFR monitor, which solution currently is simply not on offer in the market.

 

 

And you can (or even should) cut the low frequencies even more if using your speaker as a monitor, as you'll be able to hear the bass from the subs just fine on stage even though you're behind them.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Jack said:

You really don't need (and in fact don't usually want) to reproduce the lowest fundamentals, especially on stage. Something like @BassFRFR's cab makes soundman Jack nervous. 

 

This is always informative and fun through a decent pair of headphones:

 

 

I can definitely hear the low B and E on the bass as an indistinct "rumble" at 31 Hz 41 Hz respectively with the volume pumped up through a decent quality headphones.

Their first harmonics at 62Hz and 82Hz become "notes".

I then have to reduce the volume considerably through the mids and treble before progressively increasing it again as I get to the high treble, and then my aged ears top out at around 13kHz.

 

Edited by Al Krow
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11 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

This is always informative and fun through a decent pair of headphones:

 

 

I can definitely hear the low B and E on the bass as an indistinct "rumble" at 31 Hz 41 Hz respectively with the volume pumped up through a decent quality headphones.

Their first harmonics at 62Hz and 82Hz become "notes".

I then have to reduce the volume considerably through the mids and treble before progressively increasing it again as I get to the high treble, and then my aged ears top out at around 13kHz.

 

 

Intersting, my little computer speakers became audible at 40Hz, properly sounding above 50-60 Hz although the volume increased up to about 200Hz.

 

Either they or I topped out at 14000Hz.

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4 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Interesting, my little computer speakers became audible at 40Hz, properly sounding above 50-60 Hz although the volume increased up to about 200Hz.

 

Either they or I topped out at 14000Hz.

 

SM - what we should both consider doing do is to play that YT clip through our bass cabs (BB2 and GR 212 Slim respectively). Be interesting to see how much low end comes through and where the cabs top out and I'll also A/B it with RCF 310A and maybe @jrixn1 could do the same with his 732As?

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