'All original'. What does it actually mean....?

[Beedster]

Tried to set up a poll here but it doesn't seem to be working. So

1. As it left the factory (excluding strings I guess)?
2. All parts verifiable from the same year of manufacture?
3. All parts verifiable as from the same era?

Given that there seems to be considerable variability in how the phrase is used (especially among USA ebay sellers), what do you think? If the first option, how is this verified?
Thanks
Chris

Edited January 14, 2009 by Beedster

[johnnylager]

My money's on 1 - as it left the factory, though I for one would be hard pressed to differentiate between any of them, especially from the big F, as it seems 'all parts verifiable from the same year of manufacture' & 'all parts verifiable as from the same era' were present on many basses as they left the factory. If that makes any sense at all.

Apologies for the long & poorly punctuated sentence.

EDIT: Unless I was selling it of course.

Edited January 14, 2009 by johnnylager

[thedontcarebear]

All original means all the original parts from the day it was made.

[wateroftyne]

Absolutely #1.

Anything else opens the door to doubt.

[simon1964]

To me it implies number 1. But with Fenders, if an early 70s neck, is bolted to an early 70s body, and the hardware all looks from that era, how would you tell?

[GreeneKing]

+1 for 1

[Tee]

#1 of course.

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='379960' date='Jan 14 2009, 08:55 AM']+1 for 1 [/quote]
+2 for 1

I'm 100% original by the way.. Still as badly designed as when I left the factory!

[xgsjx]

"All original" usually just means it's from the USA in most cases.

[chris_b]

Only number 1, with various levels of wear and tear. A refinish by Fender, as I've recently seen on Gbase, means it [i]isn't[/i] original.

[Musky]

A vote for #1 as well.

Assuming we are talking Fenders here, it's worth bearing in mind that due to the 'parts bin' nature of the bass it might not have been made with parts from the same year. For instance I think it was in 1966 that Fender bought a huge amount of pots and they turned up on instruments for years after. And then of course it's impossible to verify if stuff like the original tuners have been replaced with period correct parts (and quite honestly I'm not really sure it would make any difference).

So although #1 would be the strictly accurate answer, unless it had been owned since new how could anyone know that all the parts were factory fitted?

[Dubs]

I'd vote #1 too...

[skankdelvar]

That would be #1, while agreeing with Musky. But interpreted by some to mean "None of the above, but then I'm a scamming 6@st@r0, me"

Edited January 14, 2009 by skankdelvar

[Beedster]

Lots of resonses to the first part, but the second part (i.e., if the first option, how is this verified) seems ito be escaping scrutiny?

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Beedster' post='380160' date='Jan 14 2009, 12:15 PM']Lots of resonses to the first part, but the second part (i.e., if the first option, how is this verified) seems ito be escaping scrutiny?[/quote]

Because it's impossible!

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Beedster' post='380160' date='Jan 14 2009, 12:15 PM']Lots of resonses to the first part, but the second part (i.e., if the first option, how is this verified) seems ito be escaping scrutiny?[/quote]

Ask Musky. Or immerse yourself in various Fender books and resources until not the slightest and tiniest detail escapes you.

"That's one of Manuel Padilla's neck joints!" you'll cry, "Probably a Thursday, cause his missus always gave him one on a Wednesday night between 1967 and 1972"

Dating a guitar by it's components is one thing - but even if they're all contemporaneous dates, you still won't know for sure if it's an contemporary [i]assembly[/i] or a modern bitsa, particularly since people started stripping down perfectly good axes and selling them piece by piece on the bay.

And given that it's only an accident of fate that one particular 74 neck went on one particular '74 body, does it matter?

About the only way you could be (reasonably) certain is to buy your axe from the Archbishop who bought it new and who swears it's provenance before the Almighty.

[Al Heeley]

+1 for impossible.
Any change or mod to standard factory instrument means no longer totally original so option 1 has to be the only true meaning of the phrase.
How do you tell? Well only if its bleedin' obvious I suppose, like an original 50's gibson fitted with a roland guitar synth. When it comes to pots, caps, machine heads, etc. it becomes harder to tell, but is it so important? In many cases, swapping out hardware for modern stuff may be a big improvement - which is why all these guitar parts shops end up taking so much of my hard-earned money.
When you're talking about necks and bodies then it becomes important in order to justify big buck selling prices.

[Bassassin]

"Original" means the first definition, in this context it can't mean anything else.

And it is impossible to tell, the best an (honest) seller can do is say it appears to be, or is believed to be original.

If it's Ebay, it's always best to assume the seller's lying, though.

Jon.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Bassassin

[Beedster]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='380195' date='Jan 14 2009, 12:48 PM']Dating a guitar by it's components is one thing - but even if they're all contemporaneous dates, you still won't know for sure if it's an contemporary [i]assembly[/i] or a modern bitsa, particularly since people started stripping down perfectly good axes and selling them piece by piece on the bay.

And given that it's only an accident of fate that one particular 74 neck went on one particular '74 body, does it matter?[/quote]

So, for arguments sake, if a 1970 Fender is built entirely from components bought from 20 different sellers on ebay, and all of those parts are 100% verifiable as authentic and original Fender components from 1970, and given that the combination of neck, body and hardware on any one bass was likely a matter of chance at the Fender factory in 1970 (pauses for breath)......, is there an argument to say that the 1970 bitsa Fender in question is, to all but the most anally retentive purist, original?
By the way, I have no interest here, I'm not trying to get a response to justify having sold a bitsa as original on ebay
Chris

[Beedster]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='380195' date='Jan 14 2009, 12:48 PM']About the only way you could be (reasonably) certain is to buy your axe from the Archbishop who bought it new and who swears it's provenance before the Almighty.[/quote]

BTW, my other half works for the Archbishop, I'll ask her if he's got any old Fenders lying around

[tauzero]

[quote name='Beedster' post='380374' date='Jan 14 2009, 04:13 PM']So, for arguments sake, if a 1970 Fender is built entirely from components bought from 20 different sellers on ebay, and all of those parts are 100% verifiable as authentic and original Fender components from 1970, and given that the combination of neck, body and hardware on any one bass was likely a matter of chance at the Fender factory in 1970 (pauses for breath)......, is there an argument to say that the 1970 bitsa Fender in question is, to all but the most anally retentive purist, original?[/quote]
Well, the neck and body won't have had 40 years of snuggling cheek by jowl. It's the neck and body I see as being of fundamental importance, other bits may need replacement because they're damaged (though I would hope that a seller would mention any changes from original if he knew about them) but the basis of the instrument is the neck and body.

Of course, if you buy a proper bass with a through neck, you don't get that problem.

[artisan]

[quote name='Beedster' post='380374' date='Jan 14 2009, 05:13 PM']So, for arguments sake, if a 1970 Fender is built entirely from components bought from 20 different sellers on ebay, and all of those parts are 100% verifiable as authentic and original Fender components from 1970, and given that the combination of neck, body and hardware on any one bass was likely a matter of chance at the Fender factory in 1970 (pauses for breath)......, is there an argument to say that the 1970 bitsa Fender in question is, to all but the most anally retentive purist, original?

Chris[/quote]

for me thats a big no it's not an "original" it's just a bitsa- & as such i wouldn't pay a whole lot for it.

[clauster]

As far as I can see, so long as date stamps are close enough for the era and genuine period hardware is present, that's as much verification as you can do.

Edit for the main point of this thread: So I'd settle for 2 for the body and neck and 3 for the hardware. You can't verify 1, so why worry? Unless you've not slept for years worrying about if there is a God, in which case fret all you like over whether a bass is as it left the factory, it'll be less detrimental to your mental well-being.

Edited January 14, 2009 by clauster

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Beedster' post='380374' date='Jan 14 2009, 04:13 PM']So, for arguments sake, if a 1970 Fender is built entirely from components bought from 20 different sellers on ebay, and all of those parts are 100% verifiable as authentic and original Fender components from 1970, and given that the combination of neck, body and hardware on any one bass was likely a matter of chance at the Fender factory in 1970 (pauses for breath)......, is there an argument to say that the 1970 bitsa Fender in question is, to all but the most anally retentive purist, original?
By the way, I have no interest here, I'm not trying to get a response to justify having sold a bitsa as original on ebay
Chris[/quote]

I'd say it isn't an original 1970 fender guitar, because it didn't exist as a guitar in 1970. But where do we draw the line - just neck and body, or orig hardware, strings even? Many serious collectors want confirmation of original solder joints...

[quote name='Beedster']BTW, my other half works for the Archbishop[/quote]

I love coincidences...I bet he can knock out 'Kumbaya' on an acoustic...

[GreeneKing]

I'd say it's 1. Not original and 2. it's authentic, which is different.

Peter