Taxpayers money and music education

[Barking Spiders]

So, the government plans to plough £300 million of taxpayers money over the next four years on music schemes designed to give more kids and teen the opportunity to learn an instrument. When they're cutting back on so much else is this really a good use our dosh?. At my eldest daughter's secondary school they already offer music lessons across a broad range of instruments but take up rates aren't high, including for guitar and drum kit. I think what the government have failed to consider that music generally doesn't cut it with kids the way it used to. Gaming's where it's at. Give most kids £250 and chances are they'd rather buy an X Box or an iPhone than a budget guitar or bass. In their world these have more kudos than a plank of wood with strings etc What say you?

Edited November 18, 2016 by Barking Spiders

[Coilte]

At least it will give those who DO wish to learn, the opportunity to pursue their dream. IMO if kids are encouraged, rather than cajoled (like in older times) to play an instrument, it might make an important difference.

I don't agree that music does not "cut it" with todays kids. IMO you are making a lot of general sweeping statements, i.e. tarring all teens with the same brush.

I think it is a good idea to make provisions to encourage a potential musical "diamond in the rough".

[radiophonic]

Great. Music is cheap to teach and 300 million will go a long way. In terms of education budget, it's a tiny outlay. I was at school in the 80s and we had nothing at all. The 'music department' at my comprehensive consisted of a piano and some bongos. Some posh kids whose parents could afford it got private lessons but although I'd have loved to have had some tuition at that age, I might as well have wished I could fly. Both me and my wife play and think music is important (and we have the money) so my kids will get tuition if they show any interest, but if it gives somebody the chance to play who wouldn't otherwise get it, then it's money well spent IMO.

Edited November 18, 2016 by radiophonic

[cheddatom]

like many such issues, it's definitely "a good thing", but whether or not it should be prioritised over local health care or whatever...

We had a good music department at school, and I could have learned an instrument while I was there, but I'd already been going to a private guitar tutor since I was 8, so just stuck with him. God knows how much it cost my parents!

[grandad]

Music, Dance, Drama, Poetry and Singing does much to socialise youngsters. It's a shared learning experience when so many youngsters appear to be disassociated from real life through spending to much time on computer games etc.

Consider our needs; the physical, intellectual, emotional, social and spiritual. How can we engage our children in a safe learning environment so that they can learn and express themselves at all ages/levels?

I suggest that through the Arts is the way to go. Money well spent.

I think I'd add gardening to the list. One of my local junior schools keeps ducks and chickens on a sort of small small-holding. The kids love it and feed and look after them.

If you can bring up a well-balanced child in this crazy world then you've done a good job, and that is about giving what they need, not what they want.

Edited November 18, 2016 by grandad

[ambient]

They've made terrible cuts to arts funding for 'normal' people over the last few years. Projects that I've been involved with have stopped because of these cuts. These were projects in very deprived areas of Birmingham and the Black country. Projects designed to give kids tutoring and mentoring in arts/music projects, in areas where there's very little else for them to do, except get into trouble.

Do some research on the enormous benefits of music, and musical education.

£300 million may sound like a lot, it's over 4 years, and countrywide.

In my experience of a music teacher, music has huge benefits, and kids love it.

[thebrig]

When I grew up in the 50/60's, my parents didn't have two pennies to rub together, they brought up four kids on just my dad's wage which was not a lot, if he was sick he didn't get a penny, and most of the kids I knew were in the same situation, but somehow, we managed to get bands together because we really wanted to, I played bass on a cheap acoustic guitar until I managed to pursued my elder to lend me £15 for my first proper bass, but I still couldn't afford an amp to go with it and played it through an old reel to reel tape recorder until the speaker blew, having lessons was not a thing that even entered our parents heads in those days because they were way out of reach in terms of affordability.

And think back even further to the early to mid-fifties, skiffle started by poor kids who rummaged around for anything that they could get a tune out of, they didn't sit back and say, we can't play music because we come from a deprived background and waited for others to help them out.

Don't get me wrong, I donate regularly to charities and I have spent many years doing voluntary work for kids groups etc, but in today's society, people seem to expect everything to be done for them, and payed for by others.

At my school we had a thirty minute music lesson a week, and we had to sit and listen to a classical piece of music of our teacher's choice, there were no instruments to play, and if we mentioned the music that we liked, we were told that it was not proper music and wont last.

I'm not trying to make people feel sorry for me, all I'm saying is that we had a desire to follow music regardless of the hardships, if there are kids in genuine need of help, then I would be more than happy to help them, and I think it would be great to donate instruments to children's homes etc, but I have to agree with the OP on this one, a budget guitar costs a fraction of the gaming machine or mobile phone that these kids will almost certainly already have, in fact, a decent 2nd hand guitar to learn on would probably cost less than just one of their games.

BTW, I do speak with a little bit of experience, I tried to encourage both my boys to play an instrument, even re-stringing one of my guitars for my eldest son who is left-handed, but they told me that they would rather have an X-Box or computer.

[Barking Spiders]

Like various schemes to get kids to engage more with nature, the government's plans are laudable but I don't see these enticing many kids away from the Internet and gaming. Also where are the role models to fuel their interest? In the 60s we had the Beatles and Hendrix, 70s had the stadium rockers and the 90s had Grunge and Britpop. I picked up guitar cos of the Stray Cats. I don't see anyone around now who can do likewise.

[Barking Spiders]

Following on from theBrig, my wife put up a shout on her Facebook page saying I was selling some of my electric guitars and drums. Of her 500 'Friends' just one said her boy 'might' be interested. This did'nt work so we had a garage sale with about 300 attending, half who were teens and tweens. The screens and computer games went in a flash. Barely anyone even glanced at the guitars.

[yorks5stringer]

[quote name='Barking Spiders' timestamp='1479468497' post='3176763']
Following on from theBrig, my wife put up a shout on her Facebook page saying I was selling some of my electric guitars and drums. Of her 500 'Friends' just one said her boy 'might' be interested. This did'nt work so we had a garage sale with about 300 attending, half who were teens and tweens. The screens and computer games went in a flash. Barely anyone even [b]glanced at the guitars.[/b]
[/quote]

Just probably not Fenders....!

[ambient]

[quote name='Barking Spiders' timestamp='1479468497' post='3176763']
Following on from theBrig, my wife put up a shout on her Facebook page saying I was selling some of my electric guitars and drums. Of her 500 'Friends' just one said her boy 'might' be interested. This did'nt work so we had a garage sale with about 300 attending, half who were teens and tweens. The screens and computer games went in a flash. Barely anyone even glanced at the guitars.
[/quote]
[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1479467437' post='3176755']
When I grew up in the 50/60's, my parents didn't have two pennies to rub together, they brought up four kids on just my dad's wage which was not a lot, if he was sick he didn't get a penny, and most of the kids I knew were in the same situation, but somehow, we managed to get bands together because we really wanted to, I played bass on a cheap acoustic guitar until I managed to pursued my elder to lend me £15 for my first proper bass, but I still couldn't afford an amp to go with it and played it through an old reel to reel tape recorder until the speaker blew, having lessons was not a thing that even entered our parents heads in those days because they were way out of reach in terms of affordability.

And think back even further to the early to mid-fifties, skiffle started by poor kids who rummaged around for anything that they could get a tune out of, they didn't sit back and say, we can't play music because we come from a deprived background and waited for others to help them out.

Don't get me wrong, I donate regularly to charities and I have spent many years doing voluntary work for kids groups etc, but in today's society, people seem to expect everything to be done for them, and payed for by others.

At my school we had a thirty minute music lesson a week, and we had to sit and listen to a classical piece of music of our teacher's choice, there were no instruments to play, and if we mentioned the music that we liked, we were told that it was not proper music and wont last.

I'm not trying to make people feel sorry for me, all I'm saying is that we had a desire to follow music regardless of the hardships, if there are kids in genuine need of help, then I would be more than happy to help them, and I think it would be great to donate instruments to children's homes etc, but I have to agree with the OP on this one, a budget guitar costs a fraction of the gaming machine or mobile phone that these kids will almost certainly already have, in fact, a decent 2nd hand guitar to learn on would probably cost less than just one of their games.

BTW, I do speak with a little bit of experience, I tried to encourage both my boys to play an instrument, even re-stringing one of my guitars for my eldest son who is left-handed, but they told me that they would rather have an X-Box or computer.
[/quote]

What you have to remember is that modern music isn't necessarily guitar based. Music education in schools today is everything from traditional instruments such as violin, which is what I started on, to brass instruments, and also music technology, using Ableton or whatever software to create music. Next time you walk past an Apple shop, look in and see all the kids in there, and look see what it is they're playing around with, it'll be Garageband or Logic Pro.

Edited November 18, 2016 by ambient

[thebrig]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1479471982' post='3176784']
What you have to remember is that modern music isn't necessarily guitar based. Music education in schools today is everything from traditional instruments such as violin, which is what I started on, to brass instruments, and also music technology, using Ableton or whatever software to create music. Next time you walk past an Apple shop, look in and see all the kids in there, and look see what it is they're playing around with, it'll be Garageband or Logic Pro.
[/quote]Agreed, and those who really want to get into music will find a way to get the instrument or computer and software of their choice, but why should it be handed to them on a plate? and if those kids are in Apple shops eyeing up computers that cost nigh on a £1,000+ to run DAWS that cost small fortunes, then I don't think they need our help.

Like I said, I don't mind funding or donating instruments to children's homes etc, but I do mind my taxes going to fund kids who could get the equipment they need, if they were willing to sacrifice some of their other must-haves, such as, mobile phones, x-boxes, expensive trainers, etc...

[largo]

My daughter, aged 10, has been chosen from her class to learn clarinet. She loves it, although I do have to subsidise the lessons to the tune of £180/year. Still money well spent in my opinion.

[Twincam]

My school in the mid to late 90s had a half decent I suppose music department. Not so much in the way of equipment although there were plenty of keyboards and a few other bits and pieces but there was plenty of people who brought a guitar and got lessons. Violin lessons were avaible too I think. As well as some wind instruments. And there was always some activity in the music rooms going on during breaks etc.
Our music teachers seemed good too.

However I was a little sh*t and taken zero interest. I wish I had now though. Although I did win a little competition to design a new instrument. A one handed guitar which was essentially a wooden block that fitted in the palm, a pickup, a few strings and a tremolo system worked by the fingers on the same hand to control pitch. A prototype was even made it worked but was limited and uncomfortable. A individual trem system for each string would have been in the mk2 version as well as better ergonomics.

Anyhow I think its a good idea that the government is going to do this.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Twincam

[ambient]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1479474593' post='3176813']
Agreed, and those who really want to get into music will find a way to get the instrument or computer and software of their choice, but why should it be handed to them on a plate? and if those kids are in Apple shops eyeing up computers that cost nigh on a £1,000+ to run DAWS that cost small fortunes, then I don't think they need our help.

Like I said, I don't mind funding or donating instruments to children's homes etc, but I do mind my taxes going to fund kids who could get the equipment they need, if they were willing to sacrifice some of their other must-haves, such as, mobile phones, x-boxes, expensive trainers, etc...
[/quote]

I think the point is, they can't afford them, that's why they're spending Saturday afternoons hanging around the Apple stores. My Apple store post, was just to make the point that kids are still interested in making music, just in a different way to their parents, and most on here. Music creation isn't just guitar, bass and drums. I'm also not saying that schools should be given funds to buy a load of iMacs.

It's not handing anything to anyone on a plate, it's a part of their education. Art and creative subjects are,or should be a part of a balanced education.

Edited November 18, 2016 by ambient

[largo]

Here, here... totally agree with Mr Ambient on this...

[thebrig]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1479475842' post='3176833']
I think the point is, they can't afford them, that's why they're spending Saturday afternoons hanging around the Apple stores. It's not handing anything to them on a plate, it's a part of their education. Art and creative subjects are,or should be a part of a balanced education.
[/quote]But how many of those kids already have a computer of sorts at home that will run Reaper (free), but they probably want the best straight away, which is only natural, but they need to realise that you can't always have what you want without a few sacrifices in life.
When I was their age, I wanted a Fender bass, but I knew it was never going to happen because myself and my parents couldn't afford one, I finally got my first Fender Precision about forty year's later aged 55, I'm now 65, I came from a poor background, no one helped me and I didn't expect them to, I was realistic even as a kid, so I helped myself in life without relying on others.

[cheddatom]

When I was a 6 I was sent down the mines. I got my education in the school of hard knocks. All these kids these days, getting education from teachers, healthcare from the NHS, all paid for by the tax payer... no wonder they're all so entitled!

[ambient]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1479476937' post='3176848']
But how many of those kids already have a computer of sorts at home that will run Reaper (free), but they probably want the best straight away, which is only natural, but they need to realise that you can't always have what you want without a few sacrifices in life.
When I was their age, I wanted a Fender bass, but I knew it was never going to happen because myself and my parents couldn't afford one, I finally got my first Fender Precision about forty year's later aged 55, I'm now 65, I came from a poor background, no one helped me and I didn't expect them to, I was realistic even as a kid, so I helped myself in life without relying on others.
[/quote]

But, they're not being taught at home. I'm not saying give them a computer, I'm merely saying how a lot of modern music is created This is for education at school. Being taught how to create music, it being a part of their formal education. Maybe leading to them continuing onto higher education, and possibly a career in music, or teaching music.

[Dad3353]

Lest we forget..?

[url="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Water-Babies-Land-Baby-Macmillan-Collectors-Library/dp/1909621404/ref=sr_1_4_twi_har_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479478107&sr=8-4&keywords=the+water+babies"]The Water Babies, by Charles Kingsley ...[/url]

[paul_5]

I think it's a better use of money than than the £369m we're spending on Buckingham Palace.

[Grangur]

I think the Government is missing the point.

Take as an example...

Britain would like to do more trade in selling to Russia markets, so in the interests of promoting this I have a box of 250 Russian language dictionaries here. They're the best dictionary of it's kind available at only £3 each to you TODAY! PM me and one will be on it's way to you tonight!!

Come on then, aren't you going to PM me?

No, because you don't want to learn Russian. Why did you want to learn music? I guess it's cos you heard U2, Rolling Stones, Status Quo, or whoever, on stage, rocking with a passion. The beat hit you in the heart and you WANTED to ROCK!! It pumped your adrenalin.

The problem today is a cultural one. The kids are still listening to music we grew up with. (For them that's like watching their Dad dancing - so they don't identify with it) Too much contemporary music is singers/vocalists singing to what sounds like a computerise backing track. The lyrics are often interesting quirky raps. But does it move their souls?

My guess music today doesn't switch the passion on in the current generation. So, give them a cheap guitar.. or a Russian dictionary... it'll have the same effect.

What you're seeing is the Government "doing something" because folk are telling them that they need to promote music education.
Just the same as Trump is saying about getting Muslims in the USA to register. It won't achieve anything, but his supporters tell him the Government should "do something".

Edited November 18, 2016 by Grangur

[pfretrock]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1479479379' post='3176885']
I think it's a better use of money than than the £369m we're spending on Buckingham Palace.
[/quote]
Tourism will probably pay that back.
Music is good for the development of the brain.
I think we had a Tambourine at school.

[Sammers]

I don't see the problem myself, we can't tailor an education for each individual child so giving them the opportunity to learn something like music is important. As ambient rightly said, some sort of arts is part of a balanced education.

[Grangur]

[quote name='Sammers' timestamp='1479480496' post='3176895']
I don't see the problem myself, we can't tailor an education for each individual child so giving them the opportunity to learn something like music is important. As ambient rightly said, some sort of arts is part of a balanced education.
[/quote]
Very right. But when I was growing up my I had access to learn and tried to learn recorder, violin and trumpet. (I failed miserably at them all.) But the chanced of me getting the money together to buy an instrument, other then the recorder, was zero.

Today many kids have enough cash passing through their hands to buy a decent instrument AND and amp!! They don't have the drive though. You need to have drive and passion.