Boutique gear

[sunburstjazz1967]

If there was one correct solution or even a best option with the current technology there would only be one choice of cab or amp or bass or whatever, for me Ashdown suck and their cabs suck the most but I see bands where that wooly sound works for them, those players probably would not like a full range amp and cab loaded with tweeters no matter how boutique it was!

[Beer of the Bass]

As a good example of how manufacturers specs can be confusing, perusing the manufacturer's websites you could be led to believe that a 1x10" EA Wizzy 10 cab is of equal sensitivity to a 2x12" TKS S212, as both claim sensitivity of 102dB.
I think any of us could guess which one of those will be louder with a low powered amp, and not by a small margin either.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1450906316' post='2936986']...a 1x10" EA Wizzy 10 cab is of equal sensitivity to a 2x12" TKS S212, as both claim sensitivity of 102dB...
[/quote]

Given a 1w input to these, and measured at 1 m, and averaging the frequencies, I'd expect these two to be of equal 'loudness', with those figures. Is that not the case..? If not, why not..?

[MoonBassAlpha]

"Claim"

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1450907313' post='2936997']
Given a 1w input to these, and measured at 1 m, and averaging the frequencies, I'd expect these two to be of equal 'loudness', with those figures. Is that not the case..? If not, why not..?
[/quote]

I'm not sure there is any bass-capable single 10" speaker that can achieve that sort of sensitivity across most of its frequency range (or at least not a compact reflex cab, I don't know if some sort of horn-loaded design could do it). I'm going to guess that EAs figures must be derived from the sensitivity at the tip of the biggest peak on the chart somewhere in the KHz range rather than a broadband sensitivity. But they just call the figure "sensitivity".
It's a good small cab and does well for a 1x10", but almost any conventional 2x12" on the market will be substantially more efficient. I bring this up just to urge caution when comparing one manufacturers published specs to another, as not all have the same practices.

[MoonBassAlpha]

I prefer the short version

[machinehead]

Haha. The short version and the long version are both good.

Some specs are easy to see through if you know what to look for. We all know what is said about statistics - lies and damned lies.

Frank

[grandad]

[url="http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/loudspeakers/?content=index"]http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/loudspeakers/?content=index[/url]

Worth a read for me.

[chris_b]

I've come this far without ever reading a spec sheet.

Bass gear only has to get you into the ball park, and most of it will do that quite successfully.

The other 80% is down to the playing.

[machinehead]

True chris_b, very true. It really is (mostly) in the fingers.

Frank.

[BigRedX]

IME for speaker cabs, the only spec worth bothering with is the impedance. Everything else is marketing bullshit and entirely subjective.

For me it boils down to:

1. Does it give me the sound I want in the context of my band?
2. Does it look good on stage?
3. Is it transportable by my chosen method?

[grandad]

Understanding what the the spec's mean is one thing. The expertise to interpret/translate them I guess would take some time and a lot of experience to acquire. And that's what we pay for when we buy a cab. Someone has applied their expertise and built a product that hopefully ticks the boxes for us.

So interesting as it is to look at and compare the spec's and response curves etc, when it comes to parting with hard earned cash I reckon that most of us amateur bassists, who I'd say on the whole tend to be pragmatists, would probably just consider:

. watts rms
. impedance
. build - size/weight/portability
. aesthetics
. what does it sound like with my bass and amp.

Also I'd like to thank those BCers who have the expertise and share it on this forum.

Edited December 24, 2015 by grandad

[JTUK]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1450905799' post='2936975']
I agree JTUK and [email="M@23"]M@23[/email], you can only read specs usefully if you know what you're reading and yes, the world is "full of it" aiming to fool the unwary and/or the unknowing. I try to be neither of those but don't always succeed 100%, nobody could in reality.

[b]Still, your ears can trick you as well when choosing a cab, in all sorts of ways, so why would anyone deliberately ignore the engineering specifications? It honestly is a mystery to me. [/b]

Frank.
[/quote]

For me, they are a mere reference... am I going to test to see if they are true..?? no, that would a much poorer waste of my time my the sound trumps it all anyway.

And for the person writing to 'his' audience... they still have to convert that sort of spec/bias too any sort of useful form.
So an Engr with no ears is just as dangerous or useless.


When people hear a great sound, they aren't referring to engineering specs at that time..
From a design point of view you need to know and understand, but a quick read of our own build diary threads
shows there are many curve balls.

Always, always the end result is key... how you arrive at that, matters less...you may fluke it, you may plan it
but I doubt anyone knows 100% what the sound W|ILL be like...
I'd expect them to in the ball park, of course..

But then... if the design plan is 'misguided' then you have genuinely spec'd a not likely not very good end result.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1450907313' post='2936997']
Given a 1w input to these, and measured at 1 m, and averaging the frequencies, I'd expect these two to be of equal 'loudness', with those figures. Is that not the case..? If not, why not..?
[/quote]

well that is that one shot down in flames already

[machinehead]

And a perfect example of why you are far better off with some technical knowledge - at least you have a fighting chance of spotting the marketing BS.

One subject that makes me smile is how often people talk about the published wattage ratings of amps and cabs and clearly don't understand the subject. And with a (very) few exceptions it appears that the manufacturers like to maintain this situation.

And those kind of myths are perpetuated by well-meaning but quite misleading advice, given almost daily on this very forum.

I've even seen quite a few instances where given advice has been simply wrong and has been corrected by another poster and the corrections and advice has been ignored. That is beyond my understanding.

Happy Christmas to everyone who happens to read this

Frank.

[Dad3353]

A shame, really; I'd have thought that an informed answer could have been useful. Still, if it amuses, I suppose that my post has not been entirely in vain.

[JTUK]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1450964056' post='2937428']
And a perfect example of why you are far better off with some technical knowledge - at least you have a fighting chance of spotting the marketing BS.

One subject that makes me smile is how often people talk about the published wattage ratings of amps and cabs and clearly don't understand the subject. And with a (very) few exceptions it appears that the manufacturers like to maintain this situation.

And those kind of myths are perpetuated by well-meaning but quite misleading advice, given almost daily on this very forum.

I've even seen quite a few instances where given advice has been simply wrong and has been corrected by another poster and the corrections and advice has been ignored. That is beyond my understanding.

Happy Christmas to everyone who happens to read this

Frank.
[/quote]

But what technical knowledge...?

All you need to know is that an amp and cab is loud enough to produce the sound you want.

I know that 500w class D's aren't...for me.
I know which amps do cut it at that level...out of the ones I've tried.
I know a single cab wont do it at a band level and I know what sort of cabs
aren't going to work either...most likely

As Chris says...you learn all this on your way..
All the rest is pretty much crap tbh... but it can help the snakeoil salesmen
if you are gullible enough.

The best way around that is to fire up the amp and cab in context with your bass
and you either agree with them or you suss them out.

A guy that reads all this stuff out of a book means not a lot..
if they can't back it up by making a good sounding--in this case- cab.

So the talent is in the ears...as a cab maker, and then the ability to reference that
at the project stage.

A man might know how to build something...doesn't mean what he has built is any good. IMO.

[wateroftyne]

Numbers can be twisted to mean anything, so I rely on my ears and real world reports from others. It works a treat.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1450964918' post='2937441']
But what technical knowledge...?...
[/quote]

Yes, this is how airlines buy their fleets. They wait for Airbus and Boeing to make 'em, then fly around for a bit to see if they're any good. If they like the look of 'em, and can afford 'em, they get a few. Sounds good; makes a buyer's job quite a lot easier.

Trial and error is a recognised method, preferred by some; doing a bit of homework and research can be made to pay off for others. I know that reading up (sceptically...) a bit about most subjects allows me to make a better choice for me. Not for all..? Fair enough.

[Beer of the Bass]

I guess the point is that in the face of specs as flexible as that, there is probably something to be said for the "Sod it, just let me hear the thing and decide if it works for me" approach.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1450965385' post='2937445']
Yes, this is how airlines buy their fleets. They wait for Airbus and Boeing to make 'em, then fly around for a bit to see if they're any good. If they like the look of 'em, and can afford 'em, they get a few. Sounds good; makes a buyer's job quite a lot easier.

Trial and error is a recognised method, preferred by some; doing a bit of homework and research can be made to pay off for others. I know that reading up (sceptically...) a bit about most subjects allows me to make a better choice for me. Not for all..? Fair enough.
[/quote]

Yep...that is what we are talking about.

[machinehead]

For some reason the "quote" function won't work for me?

I wanted to say that was a good balanced post Dad3353.

Also some people seem to assume that I am suggesting buying cabs on specs alone, without hearing them at all. I most certainly am not advocating that at all. The proof of the pudding is always in the eating isn't it?

I just can't grasp why some posters seem to be so strongly against gaining a little knowledge of engineering and physics to complement their auditory skills.

Frank.

[sunburstjazz1967]

Surely everyone does both to a certain degree? Dad's sarcastic post is all well and good but to some extent is non totally untrue, specs come first, no good Easyjet buying a 4 seater cessna no matter how well it performs in its class is it, at the same time Easyjet buyers will test the real thing before purchasing or have a get out clause if it does not deliver to the spec requested, That to me is no different to buying an amp, a 1x10 20watt combo isnt going to cut it for a punk band no matter who designed it or with what components so first thing it needs to do is work on paper, 4x10, 2x12, 2x2x10 etc, then cost comes in too, no good looking at a high end neo 2x12 if you have £4-500 budget no matter if it will sound how you like or not unless you have another £400 tucked away to go with it! At that point the only test would be with ears IMO, this would then come to looks, I would not want a pile of cabs with some on the side, some on end, badges all over the place and a head wider that the cab on the top of the pile no matter how good it sounded.

[wateroftyne]

Most of the time it's not about how well they perform when they're pushed to their extremities. It's about what they sound like played at a reasonable gig volume.

[JTUK]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1450973799' post='2937559']
For some reason the "quote" function won't work for me?

I wanted to say that was a good balanced post Dad3353.

Also some people seem to assume that I am suggesting buying cabs on specs alone, without hearing them at all. I most certainly am not advocating that at all. The proof of the pudding is always in the eating isn't it?

I just can't grasp why some posters seem to be so strongly against gaining a little knowledge of engineering and physics to complement their auditory skills.

Frank.
[/quote]

I say tone first, you say specs first.
I'm not going to buy a 10" speaker and expect it to work with a band...
no matter what the specs say.

It isn't complicated but if specs are what you buy, then no problem