Boutique gear

[sunburstjazz1967]

Tandy ^

[wateroftyne]

My hunt for lightweight ceramic cabs was doomed to failure until I stumbled across TKS. Happy days ever since:

[JTUK]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1450446314' post='2932926']
My hunt for lightweight ceramic cabs was doomed to failure until I stumbled across TKS. Happy days ever since:
[/quote]

Well, I'd agree that the S112 is a great little cab, a real tone monster and as light as they come @ 10Kgs which is about as light as it
gets.... ?? AND it is ceramic which I currently prefer.

I'm sure they could be a downside, but that doesn't register at the moment.
Very well built so not about to take one apart anytime soon.

I think to be able to engineer cabs of this kind you need a consistantly good ear.
I'd suggest Bergantino as another cab maker who knows what he wants to hear in a cab..
or at least, recognises something when it works.

Not wanting to harp on about this but the S112's do have a magic little x factor
in the mid range..either by accident or design..but that is why I bought them

Would I cal them both boutique...?? probably, does that matter...not really, IMO.

[JTUK]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1450444427' post='2932891']
If the player and audience are happy and the only person moaning is the tone obsessed bass nerd sat at the back moaning about everything from the lighting to the gauge of strings the guitarist has then I'd still rather it bee that way around.

If you came up to me mid gig and said the bass is a bit boomy I'd happily cut some lows though.

I think people struggle with anything other than how they would have it as being wrong?
[/quote]

Or, spin that around..the only people that think it is good... are the player and a couple of copyist mates.
No one else has an opinion, mostly because it is just blah..

I must admit, my pet thing is sounds.
I know when a gtr sounds good..and also drums and keys, vox and P.A.
The fact that other people don't get it to any degree is a 'problem' for them.

[JPJ]

My Two penneth

Neos - my experience is limited to Eminence Deltalites loaded into an SWR Goliath 4x10. At the time when two of the original PAS drivers blew, these were my (lucky) choice, and as I was running two Goliaths at the time I was able to A/B the neos against the ceramics. To my ear, loaded in the Goliath, the neos had a better mid-range response so much so that when I sold one of my Goliaths, it was the ceramic loaded version which went and I'm still using the Neo version today. Whether the difference is down to the magnet material or the thiele small parameters of the newer designed Deltalites I am not qualified to say but I prefer this combination.

Class D - my experience is again limited to three amps - a TC Electronic BG500 combo, an Orange Terror Bass 500, and my latest acquisition (from the OP funnily enough) an Aguilar AG500SC. Both the TC and the Orange were loud, and neither could be said to be lacking in the bass department, but neither had the heft or authority to the bottom end with both feeling either spongey or processed. The Aguilar on the other hand has that missing component of heft which leads me to the conclusion that class D works fine, but its actually the switch mode power supplies used in the TC and the Orange that are at fault as the Aguilar has a Class D heart but in combination with an old skool toroidal transformer.

I might be wrong on both counts but that's my current perceived wisdom on the matter

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1450448562' post='2932948']
Well, I'd agree that the S112 is a great little cab, a real tone monster and as light as they come @ 10Kgs which is about as light as it
gets.... ?? AND it is ceramic which I currently prefer.

I'm sure they could be a downside, but that doesn't register at the moment.
Very well built so not about to take one apart anytime soon.

I think to be able to engineer cabs of this kind you need a consistantly good ear.
I'd suggest Bergantino as another cab maker who knows what he wants to hear in a cab..
or at least, recognises something when it works.

Not wanting to harp on about this but the S112's do have a magic little x factor
in the mid range..either by accident or design..but that is why I bought them

Would I cal them both boutique...?? probably, does that matter...not really, IMO.
[/quote]

It's interesting what high regard these are held in on basschat, as on paper they look decent but unremarkable; a quality but not premium spec Eminence driver in a 40-something litre box, and (going by the sensitivity) figures, tuned for a small mid-bass bump. It's clear that in the flesh they have a sound which people like though.
In the new year I'm going to put together a pair of cabs with what I'm fairly sure is the same driver as the S112, but mine will be built in true shed-fangled DIY fashion. When I've got those done, it would be a fun exercise to compare them to the S112s if anyone up here has some.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Beer of the Bass

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1450384613' post='2932341']
Should anything go wrong further down the line after a few years and that bespoke unit is not available anymore,
you have to replace it with something. The more basic the chassis, the easier it is to do.
[/quote]

Ease of repair doesn't even figure on my radar when I'm buying stuff - I buy stuff because of how well it works when it works not because it will be easy to repair when it goes wrong. In 35 years of using various guitar and bass gear all the failures I've had have been commodity/low-tech gear like valve amps.

[JTUK]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1450472197' post='2933250']
Ease of repair doesn't even figure on my radar when I'm buying stuff - I buy stuff because of how well it works when it works not because it will be easy to repair when it goes wrong. In 35 years of using various guitar and bass gear all the failures I've had have been commodity/low-tech gear like valve amps.
[/quote]

My cabs got dropped...not much you can do to legislate for that, accidents happen.
I believe you can still get JBL recone kits on their classic old lines but if you can't
that writes off the chassis.

No chassis is indestructible, so it is a factor for me... in the past 7-8 years, I've had to replace
3 chassis. 2 were impossible which took me down the NEO route and one was a manufacture swap
out under warranty
It is easiliy done..especially if you have unknown varibles in place..like room, new amp, one cab
isn't fully plugged in..and you can't hear it working as a pr..without getting on your knees..

[mcnach]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1450470324' post='2933230']
It's interesting what high regard these are held in on basschat, as on paper they look decent but unremarkable; a quality but not premium spec Eminence driver in a 40-something litre box, and (going by the sensitivity) figures, tuned for a small mid-bass bump. It's clear that in the flesh they have a sound which people like though.
In the new year I'm going to put together a pair of cabs with what I'm fairly sure is the same driver as the S112, but mine will be built in true shed-fangled DIY fashion. When I've got those done, it would be a fun exercise to compare them to the S112s if anyone up here has some.
[/quote]

Hi Martin, I'll have a pair of S112's coming to me soon, so we can compare them if you like.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1450731298' post='2935383']

Hi Martin, I'll have a pair of S112's coming to me soon, so we can compare them if you like.
[/quote]

Yeah, that could be entertaining. I'm not sure when I'll get started on them; probably not until the new year, but I have a new wee musical project they would be useful for.

[stevie]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1450470324' post='2933230']
It's interesting what high regard these are held in on basschat, as on paper they look decent but unremarkable; a quality but not premium spec Eminence driver in a 40-something litre box, and (going by the sensitivity) figures, tuned for a small mid-bass bump. It's clear that in the flesh they have a sound which people like though.
[/quote]

I don't get it either. I have no idea how TKS managed to turn what is a very average-to-mediocre driver into a much-recommended bass cab. It's in a half-inch poplar cabinet too, which doesn't help. They appear to have done something right though.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1450732861' post='2935399']
I don't get it either. I have no idea how TKS managed to turn what is a very average-to-mediocre driver into a much-recommended bass cab. It's in a half-inch poplar cabinet too, which doesn't help. They appear to have done something right though.
[/quote]

I'm going to guess that the particular frequency response of that driver (the typical Eminence rising mids thing) produces something that just sounds like people expect a bass cab to sound, and it's a convenient, smart looking and tidily built package to boot. It's not going to have the output of more state-of-the-art driver designs, but it's probably loud and bassy enough for most, with a familiar character to it.

[wateroftyne]

I wonder if we've all got a bit caught up in the hunt for the perfect flat response / hi-fi / super sensitive / massive handling etc. cab over recent years, and forgotten that - for a lot of us at least - a nice driver in a good, well designed & built box gives us the classic bass sound we've got in our heads after all.

That's what happened to me, anyway...!

[JTUK]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1450735618' post='2935421']
I wonder if we've all got a bit caught up in the hunt for the perfect flat response / hi-fi / super sensitive / massive handling etc. cab over recent years, and forgotten that - for a lot of us at least - a nice driver in a good, well designed & built box gives us the classic bass sound we've got in our heads after all.

That's what happened to me, anyway...!
[/quote]

I doubt my sound is typical but I want character from the bass, me, if I can provide it and the amp and cab to match and compliment.
I've been heading for the sound I've got for a while now and can get it from both my cab options.

Some people's tone goals confuse the hell out of me.. and I think they end up fighting the inherrent sound.
I don't think you'll ever make if work unless you've got all the components pulling in the same way.

Quite a few people say they want a flat cab and then look at the signal chain and you wonder where 'flat' went...

If you go active, amp and cab...that is an awful lot of tone influence...and don't get me started on pedals.
If you are always buying new kit, you are probably going round in circles or don't know what you are looking for in the first
place.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1450732130' post='2935396']
Yeah, that could be entertaining. I'm not sure when I'll get started on them; probably not until the new year, but I have a new wee musical project they would be useful for.
[/quote]


You know where to find me

[M@23]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1450735618' post='2935421']
I wonder if we've all got a bit caught up in the hunt for the perfect flat response / hi-fi / super sensitive / massive handling etc. cab over recent years, and forgotten that - for a lot of us at least - a nice driver in a good, well designed & built box gives us the classic bass sound we've got in our heads after all.

That's what happened to me, anyway...!
[/quote]

This is true for me and what my response to the above question would have been. I've had other cabs that proclaim to be louder and 'hi-fi' or modern and whatever else and a lot of them sounded sterile and boring in the mix. The tks may not be cutting edge technology, but i'm glad of that. They are beautifully built and make my bass sound like I believe it should. No massive sub bass and no shrill clangy highs. How lucky we are to have such a choice to suit all tastes.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1450735618' post='2935421']
I wonder if we've all got a bit caught up in the hunt for the perfect flat response [/quote]Flat response is as interesting as driving across Kansas, which is also flat. It doesn't actually take a week to do it, it just seems that way.
I chuckle every time I see someone talking about getting flat response. Given that nothing in the signal chain is flat, starting with the bass itself, if they actually managed to get the final result flat they probably wouldn't like it.

[stevie]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1450735618' post='2935421']
I wonder if we've all got a bit caught up in the hunt for the perfect flat response / hi-fi / super sensitive / massive handling etc. cab over recent years, and forgotten that - for a lot of us at least - a nice driver in a good, well designed & built box gives us the classic bass sound we've got in our heads after all.
[/quote]

The frequency response measurements I've seen for most bass cabs are all over the place. Many claim to have a perfect flat response but very few deliver in practice. I measured the driver used in your cab (Eminence Beta 12) loaded in the Basschat 12 prototype box and published the results in the Diary thread. It was very smooth and flat - noticeably smoother than the Beyma driver recommended for the box.

I have to say, there is something about the sound of a driver that extends smoothly and cleanly through to the upper midrange that is very seductive. The Celestion Orange series is similar in that respect and I expect it would be an equivalent neo driver for those looking to save more weight.

[JTUK]

[quote name='M@23' timestamp='1450741517' post='2935493']
This is true for me and what my response to the above question would have been. I've had other cabs that proclaim to be louder and 'hi-fi' or modern and whatever else and a lot of them sounded sterile and boring in the mix. The tks may not be cutting edge technology, but i'm glad of that. They are beautifully built and make my bass sound like I believe it should. No massive sub bass and no shrill clangy highs. How lucky we are to have such a choice to suit all tastes.
[/quote]

Yep, what are you buying ? Specs on paper or tone??
I've heard a good few and a few are tone monsters and a few are tone munchers....

It really isn't rocket science ..you either have ears or you don't.

[machinehead]

Mmmm...Specs on paper or tone?

Well firstly for me, the specs on paper. That would easily rule out the majority of cabs, especially when you see the price being asked for some cabs using cheaper, lower performing drivers and less than adequate construction. Some of them look nice though.

Then, those that have survived the spec-cull would be judged on real world performance on a gig.

Frank.

Edited December 22, 2015 by machinehead

[JTUK]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1450827316' post='2936329']
Mmmm...Specs on paper or tone?

Well firstly for me, the specs on paper. That would easily rule out the majority of cabs, especially when you see the price being asked for some cabs using cheaper, lower performing drivers and less than adequate construction. Some of them look nice though.

Then, those that have survived the spec-cull would be judged on real world performance on a gig.

Frank.
[/quote]

I think you get to hear 'everything' and then base your thoughts on that...

I'll have heard most of the cabs before buying.

[machinehead]

But.... if you understand the specs you can save yourself a lot of wasted time trying crap gear. Plus, hearing in a shop, as we all know very well, is no real test at all.

No, for me anyway, after 42 years working in engineering, including 21 years in electrical engineering design, the specs are of prime importance to me. (That applies to almost everything I buy, not just musical gear.)

On the other hand, if someone is happy with their gear, that's really all that matters surely?

Frank.

[JTUK]

Not as far as I'm concerned. I don't take the specs as face value as the world is full of it, so the proof ( as far as I am concerned) is in what I know and can determine.
I'm so far from someone telling me I should like it, unless it is a person I know and trust and even then that is only first base.

You can sit down and read all you like...and for plenty of people, I'm sure that is their education but if it doesn't stack up it in a real situation then it doesn't stack up.
And some of it really really doesn't stack up, IMO/IME.

So, no, for me, it is a very small indicator and depending on the source, can be worth and mean next to nothing.

Edited December 23, 2015 by JTUK

[M@23]

Definitely, if you're happy then that's it. Unless you really know what you're looking at, choosing things based off of the spec sheet could be a bit risky. Not talking bass gear necessarily. When I worked in Jessops 9 out of 10 people wanted the camera with the most megapixels for their cash - that's literally all that mattered. We probably lost sales by trying to suggest that wasn't even half the story and not always the best way to go about it.

Not saying that happens with music gear as commonly, just that marketing people are clever at what they do!

Great if you can read a spec sheet and know straight away what will and won't work for you but most people probably cannot.

[machinehead]

I agree JTUK and [email="M@23"]M@23[/email], you can only read specs usefully if you know what you're reading and yes, the world is "full of it" aiming to fool the unwary and/or the unknowing. I try to be neither of those but don't always succeed 100%, nobody could in reality.

Still, your ears can trick you as well when choosing a cab, in all sorts of ways, so why would anyone deliberately ignore the engineering specifications? It honestly is a mystery to me.

Frank.