M@23 Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I used an Ashdown ABM500, which I think is still class D and it was great. It weighed more than my cabs, which are ceramic 12s but was still managable. Would be interested to hear your ABM1000 Kevin, will have to come to one of your gigs at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTypeV4 Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Why do we go round this same subject time and time again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1450286056' post='2931391'] Fair point...but my introduction to NEO's was when I put 2510 deltalites in my Goliath Jnr box...and hated them. I'd looked around to see whether this conversion was common as PAS speakers were like gold dust in the U.K and no one had recone kits either. The conversion WAS common and people said they loved it.... well, I liked the weight save, but sold the boxes asap. So, the box was a decent SWR box..albeit maybe not tuned optimally for the NEO chassis but it wasn't the volume] that was the problem, it w as the sound. Anyway... it wasn't until I used Markbass with NEO that I got the idea that NEO wasn't working....and then onto all the others and same thought that these boxes weren't really happening for my ears. The only NEO cabs I got reasonable comments on were Berg AE112's . [/quote] It's a shame your introduction to neo was with a mediocre chassis. I don't doubt your experience for a minute, but I know of no evidence anywhere that would lead me to believe that neodymium sounds any different to ceramic. There are some driver manufacturers making equivalent products in neo and ceramic and professional buyers make their choice for reasons of weight and price, but not on sound. So my thinking is that the difference lies elsewhere, and cabinet construction does make a noticeable difference to sound quality. When you listen to a speaker with no cabinet (like a Quad Electrostatic or an open baffle), it's quite amazing how much the cabinet does actually contribute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandad Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) [quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1450374287' post='2932194'] Why do we go round this same subject time and time again? [/quote] Well I must admit to having many of my preconceptions revised after airing my well intended advice. And I think I'm fairly well read in audio matters. Anyway it's good fun to boot. Edited December 17, 2015 by grandad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1450365138' post='2932078'] I feel the same. From the mid 1980s, when I bought my first "proper" bass amplification (Trace Elliot AH250 with 1048 and 1518 cabs - which, interestingly were regarded as pretty "boutique" back then!), through use of Ampeg, Ashdown, Fender, Randall, Orange, Hartke, Gallien Krueger, Aguilar, TKS and a few others I have forgotten about... I have always had what I would think of as a "decent" bass tone. Some better than others to my ears, but all pretty good. Since I first tried a Barefaced Compact, I have owned two Compacts, a Vintage and a Big One. I now use two Berg HS210s - not because I felt that the BFs lacked anything, but simply because the Bergs came up at a time when I was looking at alternatives, and I had always wanted to try some. Amp-wise, I am now using a Markbass LM2. To be honest, I've never noticed a "neo" sound, or the difference between Class D amps and more traditional designs. I've never noticed a lack of "ooomph" or "heft" or whatever it is called. Some amps have lacked midrange control, others have over-compensated with ridiculously complex EQ sections! I think the general quality of bass gear these days is incredibly good, and costs a lot less (in relative terms) than it used to. My old Trace stack cost me over £1300 back in 1986. For that same money [b][i]now[/i][/b] I could buy a really decent rig! It's a great time to be a bass player and all these petty arguments about which is "best" get slightly wearing. [b]If you like it, it's good. Sod what anyone else says![/b] [/quote] Well, it might be what you like, but that doesn't make it good. I make this point generally and am not picking on anyone in particular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1450377562' post='2932247'] It's a shame your introduction to neo was with a mediocre chassis. I don't doubt your experience for a minute, but I know of no evidence anywhere that would lead me to believe that neodymium sounds any different to ceramic. There are some driver manufacturers making equivalent products in neo and ceramic and professional buyers make their choice for reasons of weight and price, but not on sound. So my thinking is that the difference lies elsewhere, and cabinet construction does make a noticeable difference to sound quality. When you listen to a speaker with no cabinet (like a Quad Electrostatic or an open baffle), it's quite amazing how much the cabinet does actually contribute. [/quote] Maybe the choice of chassis was poor...but it was a well trodden route..and seemingly very well regarded... You have to try these things.. Another thing that episode taught me... You don't want bespoke units..there is very little gain anyway if the cab is well thought through and well-built. You wont get the 'secret' design the builder tells you is there and you are hooked in to that chassis very much so..which will probably come with a price premium. Should anything go wrong further down the line after a few years and that bespoke unit is not available anymore, you have to replace it with something. The more basic the chassis, the easier it is to do. A single chassis cab is one thing..multiple speakers are another, cost wise. For me, first and foremost, what I want out of a cab is tone...and that is easily acheiveable with some pretty stock units in a well thought out cab, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandad Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1450365138' post='2932078'] I feel the same. From the mid 1980s, when I bought my first "proper" bass amplification (Trace Elliot AH250 with 1048 and 1518 cabs - which, interestingly were regarded as pretty "boutique" back then!), through use of Ampeg, Ashdown, Fender, Randall, Orange, Hartke, Gallien Krueger, Aguilar, TKS and a few others I have forgotten about... I have always had what I would think of as a "decent" bass tone. Some better than others to my ears, but all pretty good. Since I first tried a Barefaced Compact, I have owned two Compacts, a Vintage and a Big One. I now use two Berg HS210s - not because I felt that the BFs lacked anything, but simply because the Bergs came up at a time when I was looking at alternatives, and I had always wanted to try some. Amp-wise, I am now using a Markbass LM2. To be honest, I've never noticed a "neo" sound, or the difference between Class D amps and more traditional designs. I've never noticed a lack of "ooomph" or "heft" or whatever it is called. Some amps have lacked midrange control, others have over-compensated with ridiculously complex EQ sections! I think the general quality of bass gear these days is incredibly good, and costs a lot less (in relative terms) than it used to. My old Trace stack cost me over £1300 back in 1986. For that same money [b][i]now[/i][/b] I could buy a really decent rig! It's a great time to be a bass player and all these petty arguments about which is "best" get slightly wearing. If you like it, it's good. Sod what anyone else says! [/quote] Here, here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1450383968' post='2932331'] Well, it might be what you like, but that doesn't make it good. [/quote] That same applies to you too, of course! If I buy the gear, and I listen to it, and I like it - then it's good for [b][i]me[/i][/b]. Whether or not it rates as good in some absolute terms, or whether [i][b]you[/b][/i] think it is good is largely immaterial to me. If my band-mates enjoy my tone, and some audience members comment favourably upon it - then I must be doing something right. You can't please all of the people all of the time, after all. If some self-appointed arbiter of sound quality can't accept that, then that is [i][b]their[/b][/i] problem - not mine. Edited December 18, 2015 by Conan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1450374287' post='2932194'] Why do we go round this same subject time and time again? [/quote] Mostly for the post count... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuNkShUi Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1450429433' post='2932625'] Mostly for the post count... [/quote] That's how people get such high counts!!? I've been a forum user for years and have nowhere near the count some have. I'll have to prepare generic response to all the threads that keep repeating so i can paste it in and get my "score" up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 That's how we do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunburstjazz1967 Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Someone who enjoys a clanky ric through an old ampeg might not enjoy a sei jazz and eden amp with modern cabs. Neither are good if it's not want you need, a two seater Ferrari is not better than a transit van if you are a self employed plumber is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) [quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1450430702' post='2932650'] Someone who enjoys a clanky ric through an old ampeg might not enjoy a sei jazz and eden amp with modern cabs. Neither are good if it's not want you need, a two seater Ferrari is not better than a transit van if you are a self employed plumber is it? [/quote] Indeed. Horses, courses, etc. Sauce for the goose is another man's poison, and so on. Edited December 18, 2015 by Conan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No lust in Jazz Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1450383968' post='2932331'] Well, it might be what you like, but that doesn't make it good. [/quote] This has blown my mind... thanks it's almost Zen like 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='No lust in Jazz' timestamp='1450432388' post='2932676'] This has blown my mind... thanks it's almost Zen like [/quote] Ha ha! It works the other way too though - just because it's "good" doesn't mean you'll like it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='No lust in Jazz' timestamp='1450348935' post='2931839'] I'm still struggling with the definition of 'boutique' - I bought all of my amps second hand - are they still boutique, is it Neo speakers that makes them boutique, or does a badge make them boutique, or is boutique a euphemism for lightweight? [/quote] Google says 'a business serving a sophisticated or specialized clientele' - which can't be right..... However, the brilliant Urban Dictionary says "In musical instruments, a specialized brand of very high end, usually handmade items made in small numbers. Generally a term applied to brands like… Guitar amps like [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Matchless"]Matchless[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Diezel"]Diezel[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trainwreck"]Trainwreck[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Wizard"]Wizard[/url], etc. Basses like [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Status+Buzzard"]Status Buzzard[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ken+Smith"]Ken Smith[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tobias"]Tobias[/url], etc. Guitars like [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pensa"]Pensa[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Manson"]Manson[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rick+Turner"]Rick Turner[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Alembic"]Alembic[/url], etc." - which sounds more like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1450428307' post='2932609'] That same applies to you too, of course! If I buy the gear, and I listen to it, and I like it - then it's good for [b][i]me[/i][/b]. Whether or not it rates as good in some absolute terms, or whether [i][b]you[/b][/i] think it is good is largely immaterial to me. If my band-mates enjoy my tone, and some audience members comment favourably upon it - then I must be doing something right. You can't please all of the people all of the time, after all. If some self-appointed arbiter of sound quality can't accept that, then that is [i][b]their[/b][/i] problem - not mine. [/quote] It does, but you didn't say that. But here is also a thing... a local favourite rig around here..won't elaborate much more but 3 guys pretty much copied each others rig and 'love' that sound. I'm not sure who is blowing what smoke up whose backside, but it isn't a good sound. There is no way they will make it a good sound they way they use it but these 3 are convinced. Does anyone care beyond that...not really, or I don't, but it isn't a good sound.... that is all there is to it. I wouldn't know if you have a good sound but it depends who you trust... these 3 guys obviously trust each other... doesn't make them not wrong And don't ask most gtrs either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1450430702' post='2932650'] Someone who enjoys a clanky ric through an old ampeg might not enjoy a sei jazz and eden amp with modern cabs. Neither are good if it's not want you need, a two seater Ferrari is not better than a transit van if you are a self employed plumber is it? [/quote] But each one should be able to know what suits and fits. I'm a million miles away from a P-Bass thump with old flats thru a 15"... but I'll know who has that sound down and what context it needs to be used in. We aren't talking bad sounds because you don't like them or use them......we are talking clueless, no thought and trying to copy their fave bass player.. when they play nothing like them ... That is just totally muddled thinking to me... but there you go. Off the top of my head... I'd say I know about 3-5 guys with sorted sounds around here... as in, when you hear it, you just think they've got it sorted.. range from modern to vintagey vibe with a pick.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunburstjazz1967 Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 I think you can over think these things, if the audience are enjoying it then it's good, if not I'd imagine the bass tone is not at the core of the problem, poor song choices or wrong band for the venue, crap singer, aimless noodling, too loud etc etc all coming before the bass tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1450440714' post='2932821'] I think you can over think these things, if the audience are enjoying it then it's good, if not I'd imagine the bass tone is not at the core of the problem, poor song choices or wrong band for the venue, crap singer, aimless noodling, too loud etc etc all coming before the bass tone. [/quote] Not to everyone - clearly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) So let me get this straight. If a bass player in a band is producing an indistinct, boomy, honky sound and he thinks it's good and the audience doesn't notice, even though it's clearly awful to the discerning ear - it is good. Right? Edited December 18, 2015 by stevie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunburstjazz1967 Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 If the player and audience are happy and the only person moaning is the tone obsessed bass nerd sat at the back moaning about everything from the lighting to the gauge of strings the guitarist has then I'd still rather it bee that way around. If you came up to me mid gig and said the bass is a bit boomy I'd happily cut some lows though. I think people struggle with anything other than how they would have it as being wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No lust in Jazz Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1450437402' post='2932764'] Google says 'a business serving a sophisticated or specialized clientele' - which can't be right..... However, the brilliant Urban Dictionary says "In musical instruments, a specialized brand of very high end, usually handmade items made in small numbers. Generally a term applied to brands like… Guitar amps like [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Matchless"]Matchless[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Diezel"]Diezel[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trainwreck"]Trainwreck[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Wizard"]Wizard[/url], etc. Basses like [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Status+Buzzard"]Status Buzzard[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ken+Smith"]Ken Smith[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tobias"]Tobias[/url], etc. Guitars like [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pensa"]Pensa[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Manson"]Manson[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rick+Turner"]Rick Turner[/url], [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Alembic"]Alembic[/url], etc." - which sounds more like it. [/quote] Neither sources mentioning Neo, Lightweight as specifications for Boutique then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='No lust in Jazz' timestamp='1450444519' post='2932900'] Neither sources mentioning Neo, Lightweight as specifications for Boutique then? [/quote] Yes, and I fear there may be a few Basschatters who think their gear is boutique just because it was built in somebody's garage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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