JTUK Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 [quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1423004346' post='2679579'] It would be nice to see some pro-players opinions on gear and how much they either get into it, or don`t. Having listened to quite a few bass isolated tracks the impression I get is that we on here are much more into the search for the eternal bass sound than they are, as many of those isolated tracks sound quite rough. [/quote] Lozz, I don't think you get to the top of the game if you don't have a really good sound down, and that means you know and have learned how to get it. You wont get a good gig sounding crap... IMO.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I would image that what the pros would say is pick gear that is robust and reliable, comfortable to play and has the right image for when you are on stage. When you are playing to audiences larger than a couple of hundred people, it doesn't really matter if you are mixing driver sizes in your cabs or that they aren't vertically stacked for the best dispersion if your on stage sound is being delivered through IEMs and the audience only hears what comes out of the PA. Similarly in the studio the bass sound that ends up on the recording is as much a product of the studio equipment as it is of the gear the band bring with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1423046432' post='2679882'] Pro bass players don't get gigs. Management and promoters sort all that out. [/quote] Right, but how did that come about? How did they get their management, and how did the ensure their gigs are of such a good standard, etc [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1423046432' post='2679882'] I believe there are any amount of pro bass players up on YouTube who go into great detail about their pedalboards. [/quote] Sorry, maybe I don't spend enough time on youtube, but most pro bassists are going to have a few pedals, and some fairly "standard" sounds. I assume we're talking about session guys, rather than guys who are just known for one band [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1423046432' post='2679882'] That would be down to the producer and engineer... the bass player has little control over the sound in most cases. [/quote] Like I said, if they were in on the mix, I'd like to hear what was done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 How would you define 'Pro' ...to me it is someone who professionally plays the bass for a living, and it is their,only or main scource of income. I might be wrong, but that is what I think. They may also qualify for endorsements and freebies from manufactures etc. The above has nothing to do with how good they are, or whether their opinions count for anything, or are even correct. ....There are a tiny percentage of the overall bass playing community who are outstandingly good, and I would fall at their feet in admiration of what they have achieved, but in this 'Pro' bracket, there are also many who are probably no better, or far more incapable than most of the people reading this now. It's the same sort of thing as all these Z listers who are on these reality shows with the words Star or Celebrity pinned to them....what a load of pants ...never heard of any of em.. A real pro to me who is someone who will listen, put forward ideas and offer advice,correct mistakes, has patience, is there when you need them, and does not have to be paid, or offerd incentives to do these things. They just churn away annonimously, and are worth their weight in gold. I know thru personal contact that many of these are regulars are on basschat, and I am grateful to them for all they do. You can keep all your 'pros' and 'a' listers......I would sooner deal with real people, who do give a monkeys... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1423046858' post='2679889'] Right, but how did that come about? How did they get their management, and how did the ensure their gigs are of such a good standard, etc [/quote] I misunderstood what you were getting at and have removed that comment. [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1423046858' post='2679889'] Sorry, maybe I don't spend enough time on youtube, but most pro bassists are going to have a few pedals, and some fairly "standard" sounds. I assume we're talking about session guys, rather than guys who are just known for one band [/quote] I don't spend a lot of time there either, but I do remember seeing more than a few 'rig rundown'-type vids with big pedalboards - but yes, usually a famous band and not a session player. [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1423046858' post='2679889'] Like I said, if they were in on the mix, I'd like to hear what was done [/quote] Again a fair comment, but that knowledge would be of limited use given that most bass sounds aren't what you think they are and largely sound like they do only in the context of a particular song or combination of other instruments... which is why isolated bass tracks often sound weird, but are just what is needed in the full song. They are not produced to be heard in isolation. Wow, a lot of people reading this thread! Well I don't want to end up defending a position I'm not particularly fussed about, so I'm off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1423045976' post='2679870'] I enjoy all the BS and fun on this forum. In terms of stuff I've actually learned, most of it has been about the manipulation of sound. In particular 5imon's posts about compression and mixing have been very educational I like to share what I know about recording, mixing, and also effects. Although a lot of us on here have gigged all manner of crazy pedalboards, I don't know of many "pro" types who do the same, so I guess that's something they could learn about Stuff I think we could learn from Pros? Well, how to get the gigs for a start! [b]Other than that, they could join in the discussion of technique or sound on the same level as the rest of us. I don't see any reason to respect a "pro" opinion any more than an amateur opinion, unless it's about how to get pro gigs[/b] EDIT: It'd certainly be fascinating to hear pro players' studio experiences, in particular how certain sounds were made (if they were in on the mix) [/quote] Firstly, there are pro's and PROS The PRO did just that..he had an opinion that was shouted down immediately, and when he came back and said it wasn't actually his set of rules, it was the way the industry worked, he was hounded again... Now seriously, guys, picture this... you have a couple of weekend warriors of varying experiences telling this guy he didn't know what he was talkng about... Now that would be funny, but he was made out to be the arrogant and rude one....!!! I'd suggest the areas that he works in..with the people that he works with, with money not being the real driver in the project against the expertise and standard required...... so basically working with the best of the best, and this isn't a good enough reference for some people and he doesn't know what is what....?? Unbelievable...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Out of curiosity, can someone link to this fabled compression thread? That one passed me by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzneck Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Can someone give me a link to the compression thread to which you allude, please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1423048474' post='2679913'] Firstly, there are pro's and PROS The PRO did just that..he had an opinion that was shouted down immediately, and when he came back and said it wasn't actually his set of rules, it was the way the industry worked, he was hounded again... Now seriously, guys, picture this... you have a couple of weekend warriors of varying experiences telling this guy he didn't know what he was talkng about... Now that would be funny, but he was made out to be the arrogant and rude one....!!! I'd suggest the areas that he works in..with the people that he works with, with money not being the real driver in the project against the expertise and standard required...... so basically working with the best of the best, and this isn't a good enough reference for some people and he doesn't know what is what....?? Unbelievable...... [/quote] It would appear that people feel that they don't want to learn from Pros, rather than not having anything to learn. I'm with you in thinking it's crazy to say you don't have something to learn from ANYONE else, let alone someone who has made a living/career from it! You can't get more close-minded than saying you can't learn something from another person IMO. Nobody knows everything. Even if it's just a quicker route to a venue you've both played! Edited February 4, 2015 by skej21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1423047277' post='2679898'] ...Again a fair comment, but that knowledge would be of limited use given that most bass sounds aren't what you think they are and largely sound like they do only in the context of a particular song or combination of other instruments... which is why isolated bass tracks often sound weird, but are just what is needed in the full song. They are not produced to be heard in isolation... [/quote] I'm interested in the context of the mix and studio work. I'm not thinking that I'll be able to replicate a recorded sound live or anything like that. As a producer/engineer who spends a lot of time in the studio, I find these things interesting. This thread asks what I'd want to learn from Pros, and explanations of their sounds would be interesting. [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1423048474' post='2679913'] ...The PRO did just that..he had an opinion that was shouted down immediately, and when he came back and said it wasn't actually his set of rules, it was the way the industry worked, he was hounded again... [/quote] I've read the thread in question, and I disagree.To argue that the use of compression when playing live is always a crutch for bad playing technique is definitely wrong. I can think of several situations where compression would be used as a sound shaping tool, and not as a crutch. Furthermore it is not an industry wide rule for professional players to not use compression when playing live, as clearly some of them do. There's nothing wrong with a difference of opinions. Obviously sometimes on the forum, people state their opinion as though it's a fact, and this does rankle, causing the sort of personal/insulting posts we saw on that thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1423050212' post='2679936'] I disagree.To argue that the use of compression when playing live is always a crutch for bad playing technique is definitely wrong. I can think of several situations where compression would be used as a sound shaping tool, and not as a crutch. Furthermore it is not an industry wide rule for professional players to not use compression when playing live, as clearly some of them do. [/quote] +1 Horses for courses and all that. I've had a dbx rack comp which was very good as a remedial compressor, and a Diamond BCP-1, which is totally different in that it makes your bass sound huge and shiny but cannot be used as a limiter, for example. Two different boxes and two different purposes, with many shades of grey in between. Edited February 4, 2015 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1423043579' post='2679828'] New gear is the quick fix but in a month's time you'll be searching for more new gear once the new gear effect has worn off. [/quote] Exactly. You could practice, and you'll see small improvements over a long period. Or you could just buy sh*t, and enjoy instant gratification... Buying things is easier than actually learning to use them well. I know what I'm talking about, my toy room is full! I personally go through periods... at times I don't buy anything at all, that's when I'm busiest mostly. Then there are periods where I'm not gigging much, band stuff going a bit slow... and I can suddenly buy a ton of things. Especially if the band slow period leads to my wanting to join/start another project, as I may take that opportunity to do soemthing different, new sounds... new gear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1423050212' post='2679936'] .......................... I've read the thread in question, and I disagree.To argue that the use of compression when playing live is always a crutch for bad playing technique is definitely wrong. I can think of several situations where compression would be used as a sound shaping tool, and not as a crutch. Furthermore it is not an industry wide rule for professional players to not use compression when playing live, as clearly some of them do. There's nothing wrong with a difference of opinions. Obviously sometimes on the forum, people state their opinion as though it's a fact, and this does rankle, causing the sort of personal/insulting posts we saw on that thread [/quote] If you have very good dynamic control over your playing, which I think should be a goal, and something you incorporate in your practice regime, then compression at your monitoring source may not be required. I don't use it as I am happy for the peaks, especially, to come out within the confines of the styles I use, which is fingerstyle and slap. If I am working on anything else, I make a point of the dynamics speaking well and with clarity so you can hear them, The great goal is getting a amp/cab set-up that can handle this and speak well. An engr in the studio or on stage will likely add compression for their goals and mixes, but that is their remit and domain. I wont be adding in at my stage..as I don't feel I need to. I don't use pedals...so its me and the bass getting the signal down. Some players have a technique or style that requires compression at source, but that is the way they play and get their sound. You'd have to hear and watch them to get an idea why they need to... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1423050991' post='2679951'] If you have very good dynamic control over your playing, which I think should be a goal, and something you incorporate in your practice regime, then compression at your monitoring source may not be required. ... [/quote] I can't argue with any of that, it's a personal thing and I respect your opinion. However, if you were to extend that to say that any use of compression live is a "crutch" or compensation for lack of dynamic control, then I would have to disagree, and I might do so vehemently, as it implies a slight against my prowess as a player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ras52 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Compressorgate: a low threshold, a fast attack time, a slow release time, a hard knee (jerk), and very little gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1423050212' post='2679936'] Sometimes on the forum, people state their opinion as though it's a fact [/quote] Jeez. That happens every other thread. [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1423050212' post='2679936'] and this does rankle, causing the sort of personal/insulting posts we saw on that thread [/quote] No. insulting posts are never justified. [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1423050509' post='2679941'] +1 Horses for courses and all that. [/quote] You're back then. That was quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 The compression thread in question was a bit of a disaster all round. Just because you're a professional doesn't mean that your opinions (and that's all they were) are beyond question. Stating that using compression is "a crutch" is pretty clearly a really daft thing to say. The response from some regulars was also pretty daft. Embarrassing all round really. I'm not sure the blame lies solely with anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jus Lukin Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) - Edited February 22, 2022 by Jus Lukin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 [quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1423046099' post='2679874'] +1, and I think it's because the vast majority are able to contribute at some level to a discussion about pickups, a lightweight rig or a sunburst finish as opposed to a discussion about modes and pitch axis theory. Gear subjects can include many more people as all members have some sort of gear but not everyone plays in a band or wants to learn theory or record etc. You don't even have to play to contribute. Re the OP, I'm not sure there's anything to be learnt from pro musicians that couldn't be imparted in an interview. In my mind, there are two types of pro anyway. There's the superstar household name (obviously many are top of their musical game but there are some who don't even know which strings they use or how to tune a bass) and the pro working studio / gigging type. Neither is likely to have time to contribute but if they do, the first short burst of "you're talking crap" will put an end to it. The superstar has better things to do and the working pro session / depping / gigging player sees no advantage in imparting all his hard won knowledge about "how" and "who" to the possible future competition. [/quote] Some "superstars" do have the time and enjoy mixing with us mere mortals, without being looking for adulation. I've only met one such person, a guitarist, several times... he was a joy to be with, he had experienced so much and was still interested in exploring new gear and he'd share his experiences as he was recording his latest album... This is a guy who has played with several top tier world famous bands. Humble, funny, knowledgeable, helpful... He even gave me some backing tracks for me to play with (essentially his tracks without his lead guitar) when I told him how much I enjoyed playing along to the songs at home. There are some people like that, he wasn't really learning much from me, that's for sure! But "superstars" can also be just... well, human. Some are nicer than others, just like with the rest of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1423051259' post='2679953'] I can't argue with any of that, it's a personal thing and I respect your opinion. However, if you were to extend that to say that any use of compression live is a "crutch" or compensation for lack of dynamic control, then I would have to disagree, and I might do so vehemently, as it implies a slight against my prowess as a player [/quote] I wouldn't use that term, but that is why a lot of people use it or have to use it. So, yes, you could apply it to people who don't have dynamic control over their playing.. There might be other reasons, but there might not.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toneknob Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 [quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1423050416' post='2679940'] [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/247879-compression/page__hl__vailbass"]http://basschat.co.u...e__hl__vailbass[/url] [/quote] Thanks! Sure helps know what this thread is actually about. I liked the bit about the monkey. VJ's opinion is interesting in its generally contrary position. Regardless of his CV, it's nice to say "oh do tell more/what makes you say that" rather than "nonsense". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1423050212' post='2679936'] There's nothing wrong with a difference of opinions. Obviously sometimes on the forum, people state their opinion as though it's a fact, and this does rankle, causing the sort of personal/insulting posts we saw on that thread [/quote] Yup. Sometimes it's very unfortunate. That thread was not a great moment for any part involved, but no part was innocent! I think that trhead should be made into a sticky as an example of how how easily things can go wrong, and as a lesson to us all about chilling the f**k out when typing here. I see so many online arguments that would never get to that stage if it were a real conversation in person, where people have other cues like body language and intonation... Things are taken far too seriously here sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Strangely compelling to re-read, knowing how it all pans out. I'm relatively new here but not seen that level of vitriol aimed at anyone on here before or since, pro or otherwise. Seems VJ arrived at the site in the wrong time and place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1423052067' post='2679966'] I wouldn't use that term, but that is why a lot of people use it or have to use it. So, yes, you could apply it to people who don't have dynamic control over their playing.. There might be other reasons, but there might not.. [/quote] There's a difference between saying "it can be used as a crutch" and saying "it's always used as a crutch" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 [quote name='ras52' timestamp='1423051758' post='2679956'] Compressorgate: a low threshold, a fast attack time, a slow release time, a hard knee (jerk), and very little gain. [/quote] Fantastic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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