stingrayPete1977 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 It's only a matter of time before we get into finger style and rear routing at this rate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machinehead Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1423420872' post='2684578'] It's only a matter of time before we get into finger style and rear routing at this rate! [/quote] Snigger......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest monsterthompson Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 [quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1423426038' post='2684638'] Snigger......... [/quote] wow. had to double check my browser addy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skybone Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 I'm still looking & researching amps, though I think it'll be a 2x10 combo. I really need to find somewhere where I can try some different amps out. Currently looking at the Ashdown RM 220/420 2x10 combo (favourite at the moment), the TCE BH250 210, or the Laney RB7, as well as scouring eBay & the Amps For Sale section here for something suitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsgbass Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I been using 10's, and 12's, but I just got into the Hartke HD150 Combo. The 15" speaker really won me back to a 15" again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vailbass Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 JBL e or k series or an EVM 15" speakers you get much better mid definition and quicker response than any current 10" bass speaker". 10"s are usually lacking in mid clarity and are slow responding with far too much cone excursion trying to give lots of lows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I tend to like 10's at least on the top half of rig... I let the natural tune bias of the 212 deal with the lows... and since the 210's are near to my ears, I hear their bias better. It isn't a bi-amped/x-ver rig so the spread is the spread but I find the 212 cab could afford to have some of the lower-end wiped off...and I'd still have a big enough stage sound, Sometimes, I think I prefer the 2x210 option... instead of 212 plus 210..and the 212 is 4ohms and the 210 is 8 ohms so that is how I crudely control the power spread between the 2. The amp can run down to 2 ohms and kick out 900w, iirc... so I could theoretically run out of cab..??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I used EVM 15's for about 20 years in Dynacord and Mesa Boogie rigs. What a great sound. In the end the Road Ready MB 115 and 210 really did break this camel's back! I only switched away from EV when they said they wouldn't be making any light weight cabs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 [quote name='vailbass' timestamp='1430065471' post='2757643']...slow responding with far too much cone excursion trying to give lots of lows.[/quote] There's no link between high cone excursion and poor transient response - in fact the reverse is likely to be true because a driver which is operating within its linear region will have far better cone control than a driver whose voice coil is moving out of the magnetic gap on louder notes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1430229342' post='2759200'] There's no link between high cone excursion and poor transient response - in fact the reverse is likely to be true because a driver which is operating within its linear region will have far better cone control than a driver whose voice coil is moving out of the magnetic gap on louder notes. [/quote]+1. Using the term 'slow responding' is an example of thinking within the realm of the speed of sound. If drivers operated under the constraints of typical mechanical devices this would be true. But they don't. The electromotive forces responsible for cone movement operate within the realm of the speed of light. What does affect transient response is high voice coil inductance (Le), because that is an electrical parameter, not a mechanical parameter. Very high Le drivers will have poor transient response in the higher frequencies. But musical instrument drivers don't have high Le values, nor is there any direct correlation between Le and driver size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vailbass Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 blah, blah, blah; the 'science' of sound; all well and good. Dear readers, don't get caught up in the Wizards' technical musings. Trust your ears with regard to sound; all the data sheets in the world do not tell you how it 'sounds'. :-) When I see a cone flapping about like a flag in a stiff breeze and hear a mushy, indistinct sound then notice the 15" K140 barely move and hear a punchy, clear attack I make a conclusion based on what I am hearing. I may be technically incorrect about the excursion/ mushy relationship. What I do know is that there's nothing about a 10" (or smaller) speaker that inherently has any advantage over a 15" and all the modern 10" cabs I've tried have a hollow, scooped mid, indistinct response. In contrast, the jbl and EV 15's have wonderful, punchy and clear all- around bass guitar response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Science explains what your ears are trusting. Your 'ears' and science don't live in different worlds. I've personally learnt a lot from the contributions of Alex Claber and Bill Fitzmaurice on the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1430834096' post='2765002'] Science explains what your ears are trusting. Your 'ears' and science don't live in different worlds. [/quote]+1. The beautiful thing about science is that it always works, whether you understand it or not. Edited May 5, 2015 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 The science isn't one thing. What we hear is the sum of various decisions and design goals that have taken many scientific elements and combined them into a product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 And at the end of the day, especially with recordings, there`s a whole bunch of other science/expertise going on there as well. I just work on the theory that if my ears like they like, it`s the only way I can buy gear. As it happens, my cabs are Barefaced cabs, made by one of the science people. Kindof bears out that two are linked really - assuming of course that the opinions of my ears are anything to go by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1430840601' post='2765072']As it happens, my cabs are Barefaced cabs, made by one of the science people.[/quote] I'm a bass player, songwriter & lyricist and (bad) singer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1430841230' post='2765083'] I'm a bass player, songwriter & lyricist and (bad) singer. [/quote] But you are pretty hot on the science stuff Alex - I don`t understand much of it but I do know your cabs are just awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote] I'm a bass player, songwriter & lyricist and (bad) singer. [/quote]No one I know of who's a good bass cab designer isn't a bass player. For that matter many of the better PA speaker designers are also bass players, Tom Danley being one example. We didn't learn the science as pure exercise in academia, we learned it because we wanted to know all of the hows and whys of how our gear worked. We didn't have to delve too far into the subject to find out that by using science we could do much better than what was already out there. In that quest the three of us, among others, have been supremely successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 But again...you have a stellar pro who pretty much lives or dies by what he can get out of his bass, amp and cab and no one is hiring him if he doesn't sound GREAT. So maybe, there are people who REALLY understand what they are hearing and how they get the sound up and make it work. This is likely beyond the vast majority of us on this forum, tbh and IMV. Sure, talk about science..but if you haven't got ears, you'll likely be the only one in a room who thinks the end result is any good.. If you are talking about reference...who actually endorses your opinions of sound..?? A book..?? If you are amongst the best in the business, it is very very likely you will also be working with other best in the business guys who know sound inside out. I know where my money would go.. tbf..!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machinehead Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1430855797' post='2765351'] But again...you have a stellar pro who pretty much lives or dies by what he can get out of his bass, amp and cab and no one is hiring him if he doesn't sound GREAT. So maybe, there are people who REALLY understand what they are hearing and how they get the sound up and make it work. This is likely beyond the vast majority of us on this forum, tbh and IMV. Sure, talk about science..but if you haven't got ears, you'll likely be the only one in a room who thinks the end result is any good.. If you are talking about reference...who actually endorses your opinions of sound..?? A book..?? If you are amongst the best in the business, it is very very likely you will also be working with other best in the business guys who know sound inside out. I know where my money would go.. tbf..!! [/quote] I've read that several times and I have no idea of what you're saying - sorry. Frank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Perfectly clear to me - and right on the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 It's a question of how you use the scientific/engineering approach, isn't it? Ideally, ears and musicality decide what the goal is, the science helps you figure out how to get there. Those old JBLs have particular properties which a lot of musicians find pleasing, that much is undeniable. But if I wanted an explanation of what makes them sound that way and how else I might get that sound, I'd want to hear from someone with a bit of engineering background in the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1430858274' post='2765389'] I've read that several times and I have no idea of what you're saying - sorry. Frank. [/quote] What I'm saying is, if you work at the top end of the scale, everyone else is of that calibre. The players, the studio the engrs ...ect ect..the whole chain. You don't work at that level if you don't know sound and have a great talent for getting it. It is such a core part of the whole process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machinehead Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1430860279' post='2765422'] What I'm saying is, if you work at the top end of the scale, everyone else is of that calibre. The players, the studio the engrs ...ect ect..the whole chain. You don't work at that level if you don't know sound and have a great talent for getting it. It is such a core part of the whole process. [/quote] OK now I understand and thanks for explaining. Although I [i]will[/i] say that it doesn't make any sense to dismiss professional acoustic/electrical/mechanical engineering in favour of the ears of good players. And there are lots of successful and talented musicians, singers and song-writers who have a poor understanding of the basics of acoustics. Some of them don't really care about things like tone, and that's fair enough. Each to their own. I would far rather base my initial selection of bass guitar cabs on their technical specifications. That way you can eliminate those that are obvious poor performers and then move on to using your ears, but - I would never buy a cab based solely on listening to it. It is so easy to be fooled depending on a variety of factors. But for those who don't understand the technical side (or have no interest in learning or simply lack the aptitude) then listening to the advice of those who have the technical knowledge is surely just sensible. Isn't it? Frank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) Bill, Alex et al have all got the ears, they have heard what they like/don't like and what is good/bad about speakers, they have learnt why things break/sound crap/sound great. They have the science AND the ears IMO But I think that's what you're getting at isn't it JTUK; one without the other is not so great Edited May 5, 2015 by Merton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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