10's, 12's or 15's?

[Skybone]

Thanks for the responses.

To clear up a few things, the budget is undecided as yet, but I don't want to spend too much, maybe £400 max. The Ashdown Rootmaster C112-220 (as reviewed in BGM) looks ideal, though the C210-420 does as well. If money were no object, then I'd be heading straight for the Matamp factory (or the nearest Ampeg / Ashdown dealer) and leaving with something valve driven, completely innapropriate and huge!

As for using my guitar amp, I would be inclined to try it at least. It's a big, tough, understressed, hand built, valve driven behemoth of hi-fi sonic awesomeness. I definitely wouldn't hook it up to my guitar cab as the speakers definitely do not have the capabilities of handling bass, but the amp would be more than man enough.

Age & build? I'm definitely the wrong side of 40, but a way to go before hitting 50. Seeing as I've spent most of my adult life lugging bass amps & more recently, a rather big & heavy valve guitar amp & cab, I think I'll be able to lug a reasonably sized combo about (though I have got a trolley thing in the garage from the last time we got a new washing machine!).

Unfortunately, the biggest draw back thus far is living in a part of the country where we only have 3 music shops in a 50 mile radius, and all with a very limited stock of bass gear, especially bass amps. One shop I spoke to only deals with Laney bass amps, another has a handfull of different amps but can order other stuff in, and the other literally only has about 4 or 5 basses and small amps (it's a small shop, with a lot crammed in!). I could travel further afield, but that takes time, I'd have to take time off work or take a day out of a weekend (not an option with a family!).

Looks like more t'interweb research is required before taking time out to go shopping (and obviously, seeing how the band goes before spending serious cash).

[Conan]

[quote name='Skybone' timestamp='1423058974' post='2680118']
As for using my guitar amp, I would be inclined to try it at least. It's a big, tough, understressed, hand built, valve driven behemoth of hi-fi sonic awesomeness...the amp would be more than man enough.[/quote]

It might... but it also sounds expensive, so I'm not sure I'd want to take that risk!

[Bradwell]

There's not many valve guitar amps above 100 watts. When it comes to playing with an acoustic drum kit in a punk/rock band, bass requires moving some air and that 100 watt amp would be running hot, better to get something with headroom in the long run. A 300 watt amp running at half capacity will be a lot less stressed than a 100 watt amp running at full tilt.

Guitars don't need the power so much due to the higher frequencies. I can be running my rig at full volume and the 100 watt guitar head will match that output with the volume pot on 3 out of 10 through a 4x12 cab.

My old Laney combo (120 watt) would overheat and cut out whilst trying to keep up with a drum kit and cheap 25 watt Fender practice amp.

It all depends on who you are playing with (yeah, ok, my drummer is loud) but it's worth getting a reliable amp that won't be over-stressed. For the budget I would spend the most on the amp. Cabs can be picked up cheap if you're not too fussy. Combos are a different matter due to being part and parcel but the advice on having an amp with power in reserve still stands.

It also frees you from the limitations of relying on the PA to hear yourself, although you might have monitoring set up nicely in the practice space you might not find it works for gigs.

[Dad3353]

A 100w valve amp (bass or guitar; there's no that much difference...) will largely suffice for almost any pub/club/hall with acoustic drums etc. Not to be compared with SS amps (300w or so...). Valve amps always run 'hot'; it'd be a very loud gig indeed to blow one up (although it can happen...). The volume comes, to a great extent, form the cab, anyway; 100w valve into a decently efficient cab will get glass shaking its putty out. Not too much headroom, I'll grant, but is 'clean' headroom required for punk/rock..? Once cranked, there'll certainly be 'grind'. For more volume still: add a cab. For more headroom: add 100 valve watts.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Dad3353

[cheddatom]

I don't see the problem using the guitar rig?

It sounds like OP is confident with the amp modeller. One solution not yet suggested is a powered cab, or just a simple power amp hooked up to a nice bass cab. As long as you get the EQ right on the zoom you'll be sorted!

[Nicko]

I'm not sure why I keep seeing the same discussion on 10, 12 or 15". Is it placebo or is it science? What really matters is whether you're happy with the sound. I appreciate you have limited access to decent music shops but please do yourself a favour and actually go and try the kit out before you decide. Personally I'd go with a decent head - Markbass III or Littlemark, TC BH250 or similar for the kind oif gigs you're talking about - try it out with a few different cabs and see what you think sounds best. Carrying an amp and 15" cab in two hands seems a whole lot easier than a 15" combo. Ultimately you can always add another cab if you think you need to move more air. I can't honestly say that I hear much difference between equivalent speakers, same manufacturer of different sizes but maybe thats cos our drummer has ruined my hearing.

[Bradwell]

Will concede the point about tube amps always running hot... rushed post. And yes there will be a fair amount of distortion introduced by the valve amp at volume.

If the sound of a guitar amp can be made to work right with a modeller up front then go for it, however, it's a bodge job using components that aren't voiced with this application in mind.

As Nicko says - go try stuff before you buy. There really is no substitute and fussing over cone size detracts from things that are much more important.

I've got 210 and 212 cabs from the same series, yes I can tell the difference. I'd take the 210 as first choice over a 112 of the same size (if it sounded the same tonally as my 212). End of the day I like them both, even more so in combination. Trust your ears & not the spec sheet.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='monsterthompson' timestamp='1422994530' post='2679333']

in bass guitar terms, it sounds like the driver is like a string and the enclosure is like the body. a type of string (flat, round, hex core, steel, etc.) will have a characteristic, but the body will be more influential on the overall tone.
[/quote]
There's a whole new debate (old & done several times). Does the body have any bearing on how an electric instrument actually sounds?
Does the Ampeg plexiglass thing sound plasticy? Are Gus basses only good for metal, or do they sound plasticy too?
I think the body & neck material has very little to do with the sound & it's all about the stings & electrics (pickups, etc) & the scale of the instrument.

[EssentialTension]

I've got a Phil Jones 2x5". It sounds OK to me.

[zero9]

I've got 16 x 5" Phil Jones, sounds even more ok

[taunton-hobbit]

There was a reason why Jamaican Sound Systems 'back in the day' used 18" drivers - they pushed air, and lots of it (whether the 'sound' was any good is another matter entirely) I currently have two Barefaced Dubsters (twin 15's), and they're pretty good at destroying eardrums. Little speakers sound nice, but they don't (imo) kick ass....Talking to my amptech earlier & he mentioned that 'most' pub bands now use a couple of speakers on poles, and that's it - sweet - If I ever get to that, I'll hang myself............

[stingrayPete1977]

I went to a gig at the MEN a few years ago, the speakers were 10s maybe 12s yet I think they would demolish a Barefaced with 15s or even a pair of 18s, there was probably 150 drivers!

[discreet]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1423062588' post='2680179']
A 100w valve amp (bass or guitar; there's no that much difference...) will largely suffice for almost any pub/club/hall with acoustic drums etc. Not to be compared with SS amps (300w or so...). Valve amps always run 'hot'; it'd be a very loud gig indeed to blow one up.
[/quote]

100 valve watts is really bloody loud for bass and excruciating for guitar. I had a 100W valve amp and even with a mad drummer and loud guitarist I only ever had the master at 10 o'clock maximum. I'd say it came across like a 500W solid state amp, at least.

That was using two 1X12 Bill Fitzmaurice cabs, so YMMV.

Edited February 4, 2015 by discreet

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1423063555' post='2680197']
I'm not sure why I keep seeing the same discussion on 10, 12 or 15". Is it placebo or is it science? What really matters is whether you're happy with the sound. I appreciate you have limited access to decent music shops but please do yourself a favour and actually go and try the kit out before you decide.

I can't honestly say that I hear much difference between equivalent speakers, same manufacturer of different sizes
[/quote]

This is the best advice ever. Don't obsess about the diameter of the speaker, or brand or the dodgy published specs, for just about everybody it is best to just listen to the kit and if it sounds good to you it is good.

However as one of those people with a bit of science it is frustrating that people keep repeating the same old folklore, including some of those who pose as experts. The science is really very simple and the headline is that size matters, but not that much. Much like gender specific parts of the human body.

If you want an analogy it is probably better to think in terms of cars and vans. Does the size of the engine matter, Yes, it does. If you want something to go faster you put in a bigger engine. Does that mean a London Bus can go faster than a Formula 1 car? No it doesn't. Do all 1.5litre engines behave the same way? Again obviously not. Engine designers have a lot of variables like compression ratios, fuel systems and so on that they can tweak to produce engines that will do different jobs. Speaker designers look at coil designs, magnet systems, suspensions and the like to do different jobs too. You wouldn't choose a vehicle solely on the basis of engine size unless you want to transport your bands gear in a Porche solely because it has a bigger engine than the Transit van you looked at first.

Taking the car analogy further, manufacturers do it for the money. You could make cars in an infinite variety of cars but there are a preponderance of just a few types, the stylish mini, the sensible economical hatchback, the Chelsea tractor and so on. Most cars are just 'me too' variations on a successful theme. So most speaker manufacturers will make you a 2x10, and to match there rivals they will make them a similar size and then put in similar drivers so they can match their rivals costs. Guess what, they sound pretty similar too.

Hopefully this helps people understand a little. Speaker size does matter, just like engine size, but all 10" speakers aren't the same any more than all 1.5l engines produce the same power and torque. Beware of anyone giving you an absolute statement, all other things being equal a 15 will be louder than a 10, but there are 'quiet' 15's and loud 10's. Even the statement about dispersion is wrong, not all 15's or any other size speaker have the same dispersion as they don't all act as rigid pistons. All things being equal bigger speakers will be louder, bassier, heavier, have less treble and worse dispersion but all things won't be equal so you have to try them. If you think 15's have a 'sound' then you are only half right. A lot of 15's sound fairly similar but there are plenty of exceptions. Mostly they are more expensive.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Phil Starr

[EssentialTension]

I have a Mesa Walkabout Scout 1x12" combo. I'll wager ten pence that it sounds more like a Mesa Walkabout Scout 1x15" combo than some random other 1x12" combo.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='taunton-hobbit' timestamp='1423078291' post='2680488']
There was a reason why Jamaican Sound Systems 'back in the day' used 18" drivers -
[/quote]Yes, there is. [i]They had to[/i], because of the short excursion drivers that were available 'back in the day'. The horse and buggy used to be the most efficient form of personal transportation as well. I don't yearn for one myself.

[Happy Jack]

Bill, don't ever go away. I'd miss your posts FAR too much.

[discreet]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1423147276' post='2681410']
Bill, don't ever go away. I'd miss your posts FAR too much.
[/quote]

Aye!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1423143531' post='2681325']
Yes, there is. [i]They had to[/i], because of the short excursion drivers that were available 'back in the day'. The horse and buggy used to be the most efficient form of personal transportation as well. I don't yearn for one myself.
[/quote]

If one's sole goal is efficiency, you're right. For some folks, there are other criteria, though. Horses (and buggies..?) for courses..?

Edited February 5, 2015 by Dad3353

[Owen]

[quote name='zero9' timestamp='1423076851' post='2680451']
I've got 16 x 5" Phil Jones, sounds even more ok
[/quote]
Wrong, it sounds FABULOUS!

[Beer of the Bass]

AFAIK the Jamaican sound system guys went multi-way fairly early on, with separate amps and cabinets for the mids and highs. So a sound system bass bin is a very different beast from anything I'd want to use as a standalone bass guitar cab.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Beer of the Bass

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1423147694' post='2681419']
If one's sole goal is efficiency, you're right. For some folks, there are other criteria, though. Horses (and buggies..?) for courses..?
[/quote]Horses are fine if you're an avid gardener and need the fertilizer. There's at least two more analogies that could be drawn between horses and eighteens, I'll let your imagination fill in the blanks.

[discreet]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1423154772' post='2681557']
There's at least two more analogies that could be drawn between horses and eighteens...
[/quote]

They're both difficult to carry and produce a loud farting noise?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1423154772' post='2681557']
Horses are fine if you're an avid gardener and need the fertilizer. There's at least two more analogies that could be drawn between horses and eighteens, I'll let your imagination fill in the blanks.
[/quote]

Thanks for flattering me by crediting me with imagination. Would that it were true.

[Guest monsterthompson]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1423143531' post='2681325']
Yes, there is. [i]They had to[/i], because of the short excursion drivers that were available 'back in the day'. The horse and buggy used to be the most efficient form of personal transportation as well. I don't yearn for one myself.
[/quote]
Post of the year?