Guest monsterthompson Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1423235801' post='2682608'] I'm trying to remember if I've written a column on this - no, I haven't... So this is how I see how tone happens, step by step: 1. Finger/thumb/pick strikes the string. This determines the initial balance of harmonics and percussives. 2. This stimulation excites the whole string. 3. The excited string loses energy to four places - the pickup(s), the air, the bridge saddle and the nut/fret/fretting finger. 4. The energy lost into the pickups and air is gone for good. 5. The energy lost into the bridge saddle travels through the bridge and set the body resonating. 6. The energy lost into the fretting finger is gone for good, whilst that going into the nut/fret travels down the neck and sets the body resonating. 7. Depending on the frequency of the energy entering the body/neck it is either damped and lost (turned into minuscule amounts of heat), resonates and emits into the air and is lost, continues resonating within the body/neck or resonates within the body/neck and is returned into the string via the bridge/fret/nut. The tone you hear from the bass is what the pickup 'hears' at its specific location - with a wide-range pickup like an Alembic or Q-Tuner it's very similar to what you'd get from close micing at that point. The tone at that point depends hugely on how the body/neck of the instrument is taking energy from and returning energy to the strings. I noticed a HUGE change in tone after removing a very thick layer of gloss paint off the neck and body of my first bass - it was absolutely transformed, it suddenly sounded alive! Instead of sounding dead and always wanting new strings it had much more midrange character and growl and more brightness up top. Why? Because the body/neck were no longer damping so many of the good frequencies. Before the bass cab thing I spent ages on designing a custom bass and put a lot of effort into finding out everything I could about how the parts of a bass affect how it sounds. Another example from that custom bass thing is I ended up with an ebony nut. Why? Because when you fret a note your finger provides damping despite being behind the fret. My first bass had a zero fret and I always noticed that the open strings on that sounded much more different from fretted notes than when playing basses with normal nuts - despite some luthiers claiming a zero fret sounds more consistent (a classic case of a brain's ideas over-riding the truth from the ears). But open strings with bone nuts still sounded different to fretted notes - with an ebony nut the softness of the wood (compared to metal anyway) adds that bit of damping which the finger would - voila, more consistent tone! I always say that when bass shopping, play it unplugged. A bass that sounds great unplugged can always be made to sound great plugged in with the right pickups. A bass that sounds mediocre unplugged will never sound better than mediocre plugged in, whatever you do. It is an acoustic instrument first - just a very quiet one! [/quote] <3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Musky - three shredded wheat.......... Talking of 15" speakers, which we were, back in the thread, I just got my Matamp 300 slave back from the tech, and teamed it up with its (long lost) brother, playing a 'variety' of blues cd - frighteningly, I knew Clapton from about twenty feet (never played this album before)- I worked with God several times in the sixties/seventies - something must have stuck (!). I can recommend a couple of Dubsters & some Mackies as ideal for the average living room - I'd hate me as a neighbour................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartelby Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 [quote name='Musky' timestamp='1423253286' post='2682925'] Never mind that. I want to know how they got an old Ampeg 1x18 on top of a 2x15! [/quote] 2x15" was horizontal. Yes, I know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 [quote name='monsterthompson' timestamp='1423260082' post='2683023'] <3 [/quote] Is that a fart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartelby Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 [quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1423307745' post='2683283'] Is that a fart? [/quote] cone testicles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1423235801' post='2682608'] 6. The energy lost into the fretting finger is gone for good, whilst that going into the nut/fret travels down the neck and sets the body resonating. I always say that when bass shopping, play it unplugged. A bass that sounds great unplugged can always be made to sound great plugged in with the right pickups. A bass that sounds mediocre unplugged will never sound better than mediocre plugged in, whatever you do. It is an acoustic instrument first - just a very quiet one! [/quote] On your point 6, Alex, I once bought a lovely vintage Precision but whenever I played it there was the most Godawful droning buzz coming from somewhere up the neck. It sounded to me like a major problem with the trussrod and I was not a happy bunny. I took the bass to my regular guy and he laughed and put a dab of superglue on one of the elephant ears where it met the shaft of the tuner. That was all it was, a loose tuner. BUT it got through to me how much of the vibration travels UP the neck and how much the headstock vibrates. On your 'play acoustically before you buy' point, I haven't done this enough (too many bought through eBay or Basschat) but when I [i][b]have [/b][/i]done it I've certainly noticed what you're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1423309831' post='2683330'] BUT it got through to me how much of the vibration travels UP the neck and how much the headstock vibrates. [/quote] Yup, I used to practice by touching the headstock (or body) on a chest of drawers, and the vibrations were enough to amplify to audible practice level. Vibrations aplenty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I was in a folk rock band in the 70's and the guitarists had sanded the varnish off the front of their acoustics to increase the volume and they said "release the tone". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I think this is why people like the Road Worns so much, once they`ve played them. They really resonate well. I also had for a while, a 2008 Precision that had been stripped down to the bare wood and that too was incredibly resonant. Sounded awesome plugged in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Does polyester not resonate? Or is it that it resonates differently, causing some kind of comb filtering or something? And how do instruments like the plexi Dan Armstrong or Status's fit in? Why do many of these top flight luthiers who are carefully selecting their wood for its tone then go and lacquer with tone killing finishes? A little like the nitro vs. Poly debate I think, and I never really bought that one either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) Anyway, back on topic as I'm sure the OP isn't getting much help with choosing an amp here. Any of those combos seem worthy of consideration, although I'm not sure I recall any feedback on the Ashdown 250 on here as it's still relatively new. It does have a different class of power amp to the 420 so you might not be able to draw too many conclusions from any reviews of the latter. Edited February 7, 2015 by Musky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 [quote name='Musky' timestamp='1423327698' post='2683614']Why do many of these top flight luthiers who are carefully selecting their wood for its tone then go and lacquer with tone killing finishes?[/quote] They don't - they do polyester finishes right! But there's a big difference between a carefully applied thin layer of poly and the thick coat put on many lower budget mass produced basses. I only took the finish off the neck of my first bass (Hohner Jack) because I preferred how the raw wood neck felt on my second bass (Warwick Streamer), and it came off so easily with a hot air stripper I thought I'd do the body as well because it would look cool. Unfortunately the body was finished in a different way and it was a nightmare to strip - I ended up using a big drill with a wire brush on it! Never got around to getting it to a luthier quality finish but I could not believe how much it improved the tone - this was the late '90s and I hadn't been in the world of bass for all that long, so there was no placebo effect going on. The whole band noticed it, even the drummer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1423345789' post='2683826']even the drummer! [/quote]Now you're stretching the bounds of incredulilty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1423349469' post='2683908'] Now you're stretching the bounds of incredulilty. [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twincam Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Funny enough on stripped down bodies i set up a old squier for someone recently it had been totally hand stripped sounded lovely unamped, much better than my old one. Not entirely convinced it was due to it have no paint etc. My theory would be thick finishes do two things decrease string energy decay into the body, and muffle/dampen that energy coming out the body. Actually that is science right there. However would a human ear really notice it!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 When you think as bass players we are concerned about how thick the paint is regarding amplified tone of it in a live mix it is amazing any of us have ever seen a naked lady never mind actually touching a real one possibly even in a rude place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 But the bass playing world isn't generally bothered. In the real world bass players are plying their craft as musicians, playing live. Those guys don't usually delve into anything like the detail we see here on BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I was using the term [i]bass players [/i]and [i]we[/i] loosley, I dont think many actual bass players would be arsed and by we I meant not me, I love a thick Poly finish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1423393572' post='2684192'] When you think as bass players we are concerned about how thick the paint is regarding amplified tone of it in a live mix it is amazing any of us have ever seen a naked lady never mind actually touching a real one possibly even in a rude place! [/quote] That the nature of the place... potentially full of weirdo's altho of the ones I've met here, only one would come close to qualifying for that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 You need to give us a clue as to which one now JT, lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1423349469' post='2683908'] Now you're stretching the bounds of incredulilty. [/quote] I was believing everything he said until he mentioned the drummer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1423404481' post='2684363'] You need to give us a clue as to which one now JT, lol [/quote] I've met about 10... so maybe 10% is average. I'd be surprised if it was that low tho, tbh.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I've met quite a few more than 10...and I think you're right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twincam Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1423393572' post='2684192'] When you think as bass players we are concerned about how thick the paint is regarding amplified tone of it in a live mix it is amazing any of us have ever seen a naked lady never mind actually touching a real one possibly even in a rude place! [/quote] Hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1423393572' post='2684192'] When you think as bass players we are concerned about how thick the paint is regarding amplified tone of it in a live mix it is amazing any of us have ever seen a naked lady never mind actually touching a real one possibly even in a rude place! [/quote] with the absence of touching *ahem* there, maybe that's why the feel to touch of our wood is important? crikey this is almost at Finnbass levels! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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