Compression

[JTUK]

Oh no...what is it with some of your guys..??

You have a stellar pro here telling you how he does things...and you wont accept that that is his take on it...
It may not work for you... but then maybe you can look at the 'lesson' here and just consider it.
And FFS, don't chase away another guy who you really ought to be able to listen to as someone who has
a LOT of game time at the real business end... (huge understatement here, forgive )
If you continue to so that...and I count at least 3 guys in recent times..you chase away such a valuable and creditable resource
of experience and know-how and knowledge built up at the top level.

If you get the chance to talk to Paul Turner, for example, he will come across as knowing every inch of his tone stack and how it works for him...that is the result of being exposed to very very high scutiny by some of the best ears in the business..
You can't not be open to that sort of experience AND willingness of a guy like Vail Johnson to impart it.... IMO.
Once you have that POV etc etc..you can decide if you can use it..but don't chase away that option in the first place...!!

[51m0n]

So you've had a successful career as a sideman and never used a compressor yourself?

So what?

Plenty of other far higher profile than yourself successful bass playing sidemen do use compressors, Tony Levin, Doug Wimbish to name just two.

Also, most of the people on this site are playing to small audiences in small venues, they don't have a sound guy they may not even be in the pa but they are striving to deliver the most professional sounding show they can. One thing that can help is a well set up decent compressor in their chain.

I couldn't care less who you worked for or how many air miles you have, you come across like a close minded prat when you talk in terms of absolutes in a field of artistic endeavour.

Compressors absolutely are about shaping transients and tone control, if you know what you're doing.

I've mixed hundreds of tracks, tracked even more and done live sound on I've no idea how many shows, been taught sound by some excellent people in the industry for years. And I'm still learning, and don't know all the answers.

I am fully qualified to set up a compressor or a limiter to achieve a huge variety of effects with a real sensitivity to playing style, song requirements and so on. Hey I've even given lectures on how different types of compressors work and how to set them up properly to bassists all in the spirit of sharing what you know to try and help people achieve their goals.

When you have spent as much time investigating the use of compression as I have you'll be very qualified to tell everyone how they should think about using one if they choose to, until then stick to what you do know about, playing bass.

If I knew as much as you about where you are as a player I'd be all about trying to help people who aren't there achieve as professional a sound as possible. I would focus on playing styles, note choice, dealing with a very demanding band leader, bullet proof gear, stage craft etc etc. That's useful stuff, saying never use a compressor is just too close minded for words though, and frankly misses a whole gamut of reasons why one might decide to.

I would be very shocked if, when you are playing live, the engineer on the desk at FOH isnt compressing your bass sound for a variety of reasons, unless you are playing very acoustic jazz, then he might not. As for on a recording, then the enginner will be compressing the bass, and ducking it off the kick too (so as to help the mastering engineer achieve level) in almost every genre I can think of today. As well as compressing drums, and anything else that may need to be controlled, or beefed up or softened or made punchier, its all in those settings and the choice of compressor itself. In fact on the Midas pro 1 its even possible to duck the bass on the kick live to maximise the kick, beleive me they do that live too nowadays - great desks those, amazing, its like having every studio trick you might need in one box with fantastic pres and converters at the stage and a couple of ethernet cables between the stage and the FOH board.

For what it's worth I use a compressor, it's a fully featured studio compressor set very carefully to squeeze very gently when I'm playing normally, but to grab at heavy pops a bit more aggressively 30ms after the transient hits the compressor, giving a real radio master vibe to those notes I chose to play like that.

I also set a limiter after that as I run a lot of effects and some of my filters can dump massive low end that I don't want to hit my cab, if there has been a change in settings or something else unexpected happens that may well save me a very expensive repair bill, Bergantino ae410 drivers are not easy to come by....

Edited December 31, 2014 by 51m0n

[JTUK]

And.... the first post I saw was his post 14 which really really didn't deserve chasing him away...

So well done.... bravo..!!

No wonder no one in the business takes this place seriously...

[51m0n]

JTUK, anyone wading in with absolutes isn't considering the breadth of different requirements on here.

Yes in the world of big live tours with huge PAs and proper sound checks with excellent sound engineers he is right, it's often not required.

However if you need to get a mix in five minutes down the Dog and Duck and you run a complex board or there are certain tones you love that require heavy compression to achieve then he's not talking about the same situation.

So to come out with an absolute is to be asking for a rebuttal from people seeing these other situations.

Which is all he got.

Edited December 31, 2014 by 51m0n

[Iain]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1420020412' post='2644826']
And.... the first post I saw was his post 14 which really really didn't deserve chasing him away...

So well done.... bravo..!!

No wonder no one in the business takes this place seriously...
[/quote]

'tis the nature of forums. I've been a regular on a number of high-traffic discussion sites as user and mod and it's a tendency for long-term/high post-count people to form a closed-shop full of in jokes and very quick to go for the kill when they sense weakness. Something like a cross between a playground and the Serengeti.

On this thread there are some interestingly polarised views and we've had a pro give an opinion. Quite bluntly but not insultingly. I would say that there are many examples of pros who compress and those that don't, quite probably depends as much on genre as anything else. I've noticed that live rock and metal tend to use compression, usually light-touch.

Horses for courses!

I don't use it when playing lighter bluesier stuff, I use a little (slow attack, fast release, low ratio) for rock and punk. Works for me but I'm average at best so maybe it covers poor technique!

[JTUK]

The way I saw it was a TOP level pro was giving you a take of it.
As he said, he didn't write the rules that is the way it is...
As being amongst the very best in the business, he will have worked
with others who are the very best in their line as the aritists he works
for can afford that..
If this is a willy waving contest..and I don't think he started that at all..
I am afraid he wins hands-down.
I think the bottom line is that some people chased away a very valuable resource..
and it isn't the first time....

Doesn't read or reflect well, IMO.

[mcnach]

[quote name='vailbass' timestamp='1419997733' post='2644739']
it's not "my way", bro. It's the way it's done in the high- end pro world. I didn't invent the idea, I was just looking to help guys avoid mistakes that will prove harmful; most pros don't want to take the time to share with less experienced guys but I would like to. The notion that I have an "attitude" is silly. When I just stated some facts about how it's done in the real world of professional music- making, I was greeted with crap like "you must not ever have used a good compressor" or "you obviously don't how how to use it". Would you expect a super- successful business- person to coddle a beginner that questions/ berates their ability or knowledge they're trying to share?....You've lost an opportunity to gain knowledge...good- bye..
[/quote]


[s]Cry me a river.[/s]

edit: crossed out as being unnecesary

Edited December 31, 2014 by mcnach

[Ant]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1420023103' post='2644878']
The way I saw it was a TOP level pro was giving you a take of it.
As he said, he didn't write the rules that is the way it is...
As being amongst the very best in the business, he will have worked
with others who are the very best in their line as the aritists he works
for can afford that..
If this is a willy waving contest..and I don't think he started that at all..
I am afraid he wins hands-down.
I think the bottom line is that some people chased away a very valuable resource..
and it isn't the first time....

Doesn't read or reflect well, IMO.
[/quote]

are you serious? the dude was acting incredibly arrogantly and was presenting opinions as stone cold solid facts.

this to me spells out "im a big nob"

[Prime_BASS]

This thread just went from sad to hilarious

[JTUK]

Well, he operates in a world where opinions are whether he gets the gig or not...
and he has gotten an awful lot of AAAAA gigs...so I'd say he knows what he is talking
about because he knows how to deliver in a world of top level players. His signal chain
and playing technique and all round ability will have gone passed such scrutiny because
that level is so high and there is a lot of money at stake to get the best out there.

I really don't think he deserved the treatment he got ( I happen to think he had a very valid point and said as much )
and it seems a pattern that top level pros wont touch this place...or dip out as soon as they realise the way it works.
So yes, I'm serious... some ppl have just pissed off a potential massive resource and someone who was willing to share
it. Unbelievable..........AGAIN..!!!

[mcnach]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1420037244' post='2645057']
Well, he operates in a world where opinions are whether he gets the gig or not...
and he has gotten an awful lot of AAAAA gigs...so I'd say he knows what he is talking
about because he knows how to deliver in a world of top level players. His signal chain
and playing technique and all round ability will have gone passed such scrutiny because
that level is so high and there is a lot of money at stake to get the best out there.

[b]I really don't think he deserved the treatment he got ( I happen to think he had a very valid point and said as much )[/b]
and it seems a pattern that top level pros wont touch this place...or dip out as soon as they realise the way it works.
So yes, I'm serious... some ppl have just pissed off a potential massive resource and someone who was willing to share
it. Unbelievable..........AGAIN..!!!
[/quote]


The difference between what you and he said is... you were not arrogant.

Looking back at how the discussion developed... I think he acted wrong, but some of us did too, and for my part I wish I hadn't emphasised just so much that line on post #19 . I meant to highlight it, but that font resize thing got a little out of hand. I can see how something like that could make Vail get defensive, just like his subsequent name-dropping etc was perceived by some as being arrogant...

It is a shame,
I stand by my not caring to hear from someone and defer to someone if they cannot behave like a normal human being and look like they expect to be bowed to... But looking back, it was all kind of silly and unnecessary, from both sides.
It's perhaps a good example of how discussions face to face are different to forums. I can imagine a (heated even) discussion face to face, but with no falling out... yet, in writing, it all somehow appears a lot heavier and stronger than it needs to be, sometimes.

Not my best hour, for what it concerns me, regretful. Not our best hour, both on BC and Vail's perspective.

[JTUK]

Mcnach, these top level guys are the very best, they know that and have to believe that or they'd never get there...
or stay there as there are so many other guys after the jobs. It isn't mere ego to know you are up with the very best,
it is a fact that your peers choose you for the gig.
I didn't think he was out of order and all he did was post his credits which we all do in some of our sigs and stuff...
to back up his views. The bigger point was that a very clean technique can do away with a lot of the need
for compression at the monitoring stage which is what he would be primariliy concerned with..
Engrs will add it for their purposes which is overall band sound... FOH or studio mix-down.
I don't use it for that reason, but then I am not a big FX person either. and I thnk I can get my sound out there
without it. No engr asks me for my signal to be compressed at source and I take pride in that. As I said, what
they do with the signal isn't my call.

[Bobthedog]

This seems sadly appropriate:

Edited December 31, 2014 by Bobthedog

[Jus Lukin]

Interesting vibe right here.

I see both sides of the argument, though not the exclusivity, or vehemence. As a fixative for poor technique or setup, or in place of learning proper dynamic control of the instrument, compression is not the solution. And when giving a signal to an engineer, live or in the studio, they will often want a 'pure' tone which they can treat as they see fit, so may ask that you don't feed them a pre-compressed or EQ'd tone. I've even been asked to record latin music with the tone control fully open, so that any tonal choices rest with the mix engineer. When part of a well oiled machine, it is important to be aware of which cogs are your responsibility, and which aren't.

That said, a comp can be a creative/tonal tool, and just last night I recorded for a heavy rock band, using a plectrum. Simply popping on a Boss CS-3 with a slow attack and high threshold (well, low input gain, but let's not get onto that!) brought out the pick attack and emphasised the 'growl' in the sustain. It wasn't there as a fix for my crapness, but made the tone and feel more appropriate for the track, much like choosing an appropriate bass does. The live takes felt better as a result, and the band were pleased with the final sound over previous sessions we'd done. In that case, some of the work was already done for the engineer at the tracking stage, which suited him fine. I know from messing about with it, that the same pedal with a very short attack smooths the envelope nicely (if a little obviously), and it is a sound I have up my sleeve for when or if it suits a particular situation. I have trouble believing that no respectable track has ever been recorded through a compressor, or that a band has never benefited from a touch of comp at the bass rig at smaller shows.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Jus Lukin

[JTUK]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1420040816' post='2645094']
The difference between what you and he said is... you were not arrogant.

Looking back at how the discussion developed... I think he acted wrong, but some of us did too, and for my part I wish I hadn't emphasised just so much that line on post #19 . I meant to highlight it, but that font resize thing got a little out of hand. I can see how something like that could make Vail get defensive, just like his subsequent name-dropping etc was perceived by some as being arrogant...

It is a shame,
I stand by my not caring to hear from someone and defer to someone if they cannot behave like a normal human being and look like they expect to be bowed to... But looking back, it was all kind of silly and unnecessary, from both sides.
It's perhaps a good example of how discussions face to face are different to forums. I can imagine a (heated even) discussion face to face, but with no falling out... yet, in writing, it all somehow appears a lot heavier and stronger than it needs to be, sometimes.

Not my best hour, for what it concerns me, regretful. Not our best hour, both on BC and Vail's perspective.
[/quote]

Ok, understand.
I guess what annoys me is that as a community we keep doing this...chasing away top level pros.

I mean, we could have asked him about this...and all sorts of stuff

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWSqLD6gdrI"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWSqLD6gdrI[/url]

[Iain]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1420042309' post='2645119']
Mcnach, these top level guys are the very best, they know that and have to believe that or they'd never get there...
or stay there as there are so many other guys after the jobs.[/quote]

What about the players in successful bands that do use it in their live rig? It's not cut and dried and it's not about sloppy technique or sub-standard musicians.



[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1420042309' post='2645119']
Engrs will add it for their purposes which is overall band sound... FOH or studio mix-down.
I don't use it for that reason, but then I am not a big FX person either. and I thnk I can get my sound out there
without it. No engr asks me for my signal to be compressed at source and I take pride in that. As I said, what
they do with the signal isn't my call.[/quote]

If I ever play a gig big enough to have FoH I'll probably ask the engineer what he wants from me... I'm not cocky enough to think I know enough to lay down the law.

As things stand the sound our of my cabs is what the crowd get and that works fine too for the small gigs I play. To my ear the sound is better with a little compression - it's pretty subtle though and it wouldn't hurt me if it wasn't there but my FX unit has a pretty good modelling in place so I make use of it.

I'm fairly certain there is not 100% right answer as it situationally dependent.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Iain' timestamp='1420043379' post='2645140']
What about the players in successful bands that do use it in their live rig? It's not cut and dried and it's not about sloppy technique or sub-standard musicians.

........................................................

If I ever play a gig big enough to have FoH I'll probably ask the engineer what he wants from me... I'm not cocky enough to think I know enough to lay down the law.

As things stand the sound our of my cabs is what the crowd get and that works fine too for the small gigs I play. To my ear the sound is better with a little compression - it's pretty subtle though and it wouldn't hurt me if it wasn't there but my FX unit has a pretty good modelling in place so I make use of it.

I'm fairly certain there is not 100% right answer as it situationally dependent.
[/quote]

They'll have production meetings to discuss the best way forward and as and where it will be....if at all.
If they use it at source for their monitoring then the stage and front engrs may well want/need that bypassed.

For what I do...and I don't use FX's much at all...and hardly get the board out, the engr will have clean and probably request
a pre-out signal from my amp. This is fine... but if you are trusting engrs, then you should know what they do with your sound.
Some players care, and some don't and can't control that aspect anyway but at some level someone is going to be taking a major major look at everything that comes out of the band and how...as this all refelcts on the artist or product.

It can be as simple as 'don't use that guy, he was crap last time, to 'we MUST have that guy and THAT kit spec'. ..and then some.
It depends how much it all matters. And at the level Vail Johnson gigs at, it will matter RATHER A LOT, IMO

[molan]

Vail Johnson

Played with:
Kenny G Keb' Mo', Herbie Hancock, Michael Bolton, Peabo Bryson, Edgar Winter, James Ingram, Patti Austin, David Benoit, Kieko Matsui, Paula Abdul, Warren Hill, Gil Scott Heron, Whitney Houston, George Benson, Carmine Appice, Frank Gambale, Eric Marienthal, Chris Botti, Kirk Whalum,David Cassidy, Phil Perry, Steve Perry, Stevie Nicks. . .

[i]Guitar World Magazine Bassist of the Year [/i]
[i]Bass Player Magazine Jazz Bassist of the Year[/i]

But of course to the BassChat massive he's an arrogant twat who needs to be shouted down because he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Nice one guys

[chris_b]

I've just read this thread. . . . and I can't believe what I've just seen.

Hang your heads in shame.

[Ant]

hang our heads in shame?! can you guys not see the arrogance in those posts? fair enough he's a top tier uber pro who has played bass at jesus' wedding, but the "im right you're wrong" attitude is bullshit, and he could've presented his opinions (which they are, not facts) in a much less condescending manner

[JTUK]

No... I didn't and I've read it a few times..
Care to pinpoint them for me because I'm struggling
to see where he was out of order.
The first point I saw was when he was told he was talking nonsense....!!!

[ironside1966]

MY 2p worth.
I have said this before
Unless you really understand what you want from the compressor stay away. Over the last couple of years I have remixed lot of tracks for bands because they unhappy with the original mix. One problem that cropped up time and time again on most with the original mixers was over use of compression, these mixers were done by people who are supposed to understands compression, So be careful, compression isn't hard to understand but you need to learn to listen for the negative effects.
If you want to change your sound then, yes use a compressor
If you just want to keep the bass in the right place of the mix then it is best done FOH

Edited December 31, 2014 by ironside1966

[Woodinblack]

Regardless, I would say that if you only want to talk and not be disagreed with, then you are probably better off publishing a blog then chatting on a forum.

I also come from the guitar world where the compressor is an effect, rather than the terms here of just limiting or levelling your system. If you don't need that effect, just like an octaver or a flanger, don't use it, but if you do, it can add quite a lot.

[icastle]

Nice one.

Yet again, you had the chance of learning some stuff from one of the top industry players, some of it might have been relevant to you, some of it might not have been.

But hey, let's not worry about it - self professed experts are two a penny so why would anyone actually want to listen to what a professional bassist has to say?

[Kiwi]

I'm seriously unhappy with how Vail Johnson has been treated on this thread. We don't expect boot licking when Pro's do come and visit but if you don't agree with anyone on this forum, make your point and step away from the keyboard. It's the mature thing to do and it would be nice for the wider membership...at minimum the 1699 other members who visited last month, to feel like they can access a range of experience that is broader than pub gigs and the summer festival circuit.