Does body wood make a difference to the sound of a bass guitar?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1413371341' post='2577558']...
Returning to the topic, the violins and brass instruments are good examples of how the personal experience of people who are quite expert in a field can still easily be wrong. That's why we need well designed and implemented experiments to find out what the truth is.
[/quote]

... although, being acoustic instruments, violins et al are not directly comparable, I'd say. Acoustic guitars have a very different sound, depending partially on the essence used, but solid-body basses..? How about electro-drums..? Does the wood used for the sticks (Hickory..? Oak..?) influence the sound much, or at all..? Similar debate, I'd say.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1413363468' post='2577424']
I'd go further than this. If you can establish that disassembling and rebuilding the bass has minimal affect on the sound then I would want to see what effect different bodies made out of the same wood have. I'd suggest that a sample of 20 bodies would be an absolute minimum and would be happier with something in the 100 bodies range would be more representative.

Also each of the bodies would have to be made out of a single piece of wood. IMO once you start gluing bits of wood together you simply add too many variable even if you could guarantee that all the joins were in exactly the same place on all the bodies and the same amount of glue had been used each time.

And finally each body would need to have been made on the same CNC machine from the same template and any finishing was exactly the same on all the bodies.

Only after all that would I start to consider a different type of wood and see if there were any constant differences between the two types.
[/quote]

I agree, thats what I was getting at when I said you'd need to do "lots more experiments".

Doing this kind of thing properly is actually really hard, its why nobody has really bothered doing it. Acousticians have more interesting problems to work on (purely acoustic instruments, for starters) and amateur musicians / bass makers have neither the time, the expertise, or the means to do it properly.

I genuinely tend to think "forget about what you think it might sound like, choose based on aesthetic and weight and let the bass maker worry about everything else" is the way forward.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1413371789' post='2577570']
... although, being acoustic instruments, violins et al are not directly comparable, I'd say. Acoustic guitars have a very different sound, depending partially on the essence used, but solid-body basses..? How about electro-drums..? Does the wood used for the sticks (Hickory..? Oak..?) influence the sound much, or at all..? Similar debate, I'd say.
[/quote]

The conclusions we're taking, or at least that I'm taking, from the violin and brass instrument examples is simply that 'even experts can be sucked in by myths'. The two situations are amply close enough for that quite general conclusion to be transferable, and for it to mean that we can't presume that bass body wood makes a difference because expert people claim that it does.

Your electro-drum example is certainly closer to the bass body wood example than violins. But, I'm not familiar with any double blind research on wood sticks for electro drums making a difference to the sound or not. Unless we find some such research, then we have to look at what we have.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1413371789' post='2577570']
Does the wood used for the sticks (Hickory..? Oak..?) influence the sound much, or at all..? Similar debate, I'd say.
[/quote]

Did you ever see the video thst Vic Firth made in the '90s (I think) about that? Dom Famularo was basically playing a cymbal with
loads of different sticks to show the sound difference. You could hear the difference, to a point, in stick sizes and between wood and
nylon tips, but the difference between, say, a 5A in maple and a 5A in hickory was inaudible.

[Doddy]

[quote name='TheSiberian' timestamp='1413363225' post='2577422']
I heard voices in the F1 race that the only difference between Ferrari and Mercedes are the tyres...
[/quote]

Sarcasm?


*wink*

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1413374243' post='2577607']
Did you ever see the video thst Vic Firth made in the '90s (I think) about that? Dom Famularo was basically playing a cymbal with
loads of different sticks to show the sound difference. You could hear the difference, to a point, in stick sizes and between wood and
nylon tips, but the difference between, say, a 5A in maple and a 5A in hickory was inaudible.
[/quote]

Yes, I have an informed opinion as to stick weights and matter from personal experience, and am convinced of the influence in acoustic drumming. Electro, though..? I'm less convinced. The weight, I could accept, but not the difference between different woods. Subtle but tangible on acoustics, but not with pads, I'd say. That's how I see the tonewood debate, too. Maybe a difference, but so slight as to be imperceptible. I agree that it would be difficult to do the definitive experiment; is it not worthwhile for any builder to at least try to prove the opposite, or would that only be a shot in the foot..? Hmm...
Edit: the difference in wood essence is, to me, a matter of 'feeling', rebound, compliance and robustness, rather than audible. Maple sticks do tend to bust suddenly, I found. Japanese Oak, that's the choice of experts (well, mine, anyway... [size=4] ). 5A, nylon tip, if you must know.[/size]

Edited October 15, 2014 by Dad3353

[Norris]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1413371341' post='2577558']
... That's why we need well designed and implemented experiments to find out what the truth is.
[/quote]
Or just pay what you can afford for a bass that sounds good to you and that you like playing.
And then play it.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1413371341' post='2577558']
I think this is the wrong comparison. The topic of the thread was meant to be whether the species of body wood makes a difference to the tone. The correct comparison then would be an instrument individually handmade from carefully selected woods with no expense spared to another instrument individually handmade from some other wood with no expense spared other than the choice of wood species. Or, two crudely made basses that only differ in the species of wood of the body. Otherwise you're comparing apples with oranges. Particularly since nobody seems to be claiming that a crudely made instrument is as good as a very well made instrument.

Returning to the topic, the violins and brass instruments are good examples of how the personal experience of people who are quite expert in a field can still easily be wrong. That's why we need well designed and implemented experiments to find out what the truth is.
[/quote]

On the "crudely made" phrase, I was alluding to the idea sometimes hinted at on forums that the cheapest copy with a decent pickup installed will be as good as anything else. It's true that in many contexts the sound will be similar enough to be indistinguishable, but there are all kinds of subtle things which may make the cheap copy less pleasurable to play than a premium instrument. Maybe not strictly relevant here admittedly, but I choose my instruments through playing them and not through double-blind tests.
With regard to the violin and brass players, I don't think their personal experience [i]is[/i] wrong, but their interpretation and explanation of that experience probably is. Their personal experience is simply that they prefer playing instrument X to instrument Y, which is a valid (if personal) observation. The questionable bit is whether another instrument made from the same material as X will have the same desirable traits.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Beer of the Bass

[TheSiberian]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1413374380' post='2577611']
Sarcasm?


*wink*
[/quote]

I have no more tears so…let's have some fun at least.
Best

[discreet]

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1413375765' post='2577636']
Or just pay what you can afford for a bass that sounds good to you and that you like playing. And then play it.
[/quote]

Huh! That would WAY too easy.

[PlungerModerno]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1413357713' post='2577367']
It's a [url="http://borntorock.com/f4b.html"]Born To Rock F4B Bass[/url]. As well as being made almost entirely out of aluminium the design does away with the need for a truss rod. You can read all about the one I used to own [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/32239-aluminium-part-3/"]here[/url].
[/quote]

Sooo cool. Even if it needed some reworking to perfect it* (the bridge needed revising badly).

*EDIT: The design. I wouldn't mod such a rare instrument.

Edited October 15, 2014 by PlungerModerno

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1413375765' post='2577636']
Or just pay what you can afford for a bass that sounds good to you and that you like playing.
And then play it.
[/quote]

I do quite a bit of this

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1413378163' post='2577678']
On the "crudely made" phrase, I was alluding to the idea sometimes hinted at on forums that the cheapest copy with a decent pickup installed will be as good as anything else. It's true that in many contexts the sound will be similar enough to be indistinguishable, but there are all kinds of subtle things which may make the cheap copy less pleasurable to play than a premium instrument. Maybe not strictly relevant here admittedly, but I choose my instruments through playing them and not through double-blind tests.
[/quote]

Deciding which bass to play is one thing, and playing an instrument and choosing the right one is best handled the way you describe. But, this thread isn't about playing and buying basses, it's specifically about the academic question of whether wood species (at least between sensible tonewoods) makes a significant difference to the sound of an electric bass. Answering the second question is very different, and not all that relevant (as you say) to, the first question.

This thread was specifically started to isolate this discussion from the wider picture of bass purchasing and playing.

[quote]
With regard to the violin and brass players, I don't think their personal experience [i]is[/i] wrong, but their interpretation and explanation of that experience probably is. Their personal experience is simply that they prefer playing instrument X to instrument Y, which is a valid (if personal) observation. The questionable bit is whether another instrument made from the same material as X will have the same desirable traits.
[/quote]

Quite possible. But, there are claims made about the sound quality, so even if the error is due to them misinterpreting and/or mis-explaining their experience, it's still an error.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Annoying Twit

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Before getting into testing different woods against each other, I think you would first have to satisfy the following question;

If you felled a single tree of one species and then made a number of bodies from the timber, would you get a variation depending on which part of the tree the wood came from?

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='SubsonicSimpleton' timestamp='1413394057' post='2577906']
Before getting into testing different woods against each other, I think you would first have to satisfy the following question;

If you felled a single tree of one species and then made a number of bodies from the timber, would you get a variation depending on which part of the tree the wood came from?
[/quote]

There may be variation within pieces of wood. You could still do the experiment. You will just need to compare (say) N alder bodied jazz basses to N basswood bodied jazz basses. Where N is a number chosen by statistical power analysis.

You could also work out whether the variation within a species is significant. Give people three recordings at a time. Two of these are of the same bass, and the other one is a different bass of the same make, model, and construction. If they can identify the odd man out with a frequency significantly higher than random chance, then the variation in body wood within a species has a significant affect on tone. If not, then it doesn't.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Annoying Twit

[miles'tone]

No two pairs of hands sound the same and they're all from the same species.

[goblin]

Well, I took my new Streamer SS1 5 string to a jam tonight, and one thing for sure, the Wenge broad thru neck adds a lot of weight, and effects the sound people make when they pick it up... so yes, wood does make a difference to the sound of (someone picking up) a bass guitar

[neepheid]

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1413375765' post='2577636']
Or just pay what you can afford for a bass that sounds good to you and that you like playing.
And then play it.
[/quote]

Absolutely 100% agree. For the record, I find this obsessing about such a minute detail gets in the way of the simple pleasure of enjoying a particular bass for its own sake on its own merits and while I do not deny anyone's right to be as prescriptive and meticulous as they deem appropriate, as such I do not indulge in it.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1413402294' post='2577990']
There may be variation within pieces of wood. You could still do the experiment. You will just need to compare (say) N alder bodied jazz basses to N basswood bodied jazz basses. Where N is a number chosen by statistical power analysis.

You could also work out whether the variation within a species is significant. Give people three recordings at a time. Two of these are of the same bass, and the other one is a different bass of the same make, model, and construction. If they can identify the odd man out with a frequency significantly higher than random chance, then the variation in body wood within a species has a significant affect on tone. If not, then it doesn't.
[/quote]

Personally I think there are still too many variables in this. Even something fairly simple like a Fender P, no two bodies are made in the same way with the joins between the various pieces of wood being in the same place, so the comparison would still be meaningless.

Personally when it comes to solid electric instruments talking about "tone woods" is fairly pretentious. The important qualities for the wood in these instruments is rigidity and weight and how it vibrates is of minor importance in comparison.

In the end all that matters is: do you like how the instrument look, plays and sounds? Everything else is irrelevant.

[discreet]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1413454879' post='2578349']
In the end all that matters is: do you like how the instrument looks, plays and sounds? Everything else is irrelevant.
[/quote]

Yes. But judging by the number of instruments that do the rounds on here, we can't even get [i]that [/i]right!

[miles'tone]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1413483048' post='2578786']


Yes. But judging by the number of instruments that do the rounds on here, we can't even get [i]that [/i]right!
[/quote]

Too true

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1413454879' post='2578349']
Personally I think there are still too many variables in this. Even something fairly simple like a Fender P, no two bodies are made in the same way with the joins between the various pieces of wood being in the same place, so the comparison would still be meaningless.

Personally when it comes to solid electric instruments talking about "tone woods" is fairly pretentious. The important qualities for the wood in these instruments is rigidity and weight and how it vibrates is of minor importance in comparison.

In the end all that matters is: do you like how the instrument look, plays and sounds? Everything else is irrelevant.
[/quote]

If there is variation between identically specified basses, then all you need to do is compare a number of basses of one wood type versus a number of basses of another wood type. In that way, variation within a single wood type would be handled, and we could see if the different species makes a significant difference. Statistical techniques can be used to calculate how many 'a number' should be.

PS: I see several posts about 'obsessing about minutiae' when buying basses. When I've bought basses I've not been concerned about the body wood at all, and in some cases didn't even know what the body wood was until I got the bass home and looked it up. I still think it's a reasonable thing to discuss body wood in a single thread on basschat. What makes it a reasonable topic to discuss is that there are both people who believe that body wood species makes a difference, and people who don't.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Annoying Twit

[JTUK]

Not read back thru the thread but I'd say all wood makes a difference....but unless you can swap out that wood
and compare, which most of us can't do, then you'll not know how.
Luthiers will know if they use various combinations, IMO.
I had a bass made and I picked known combinations but no one could predict exactly what it would sound like
until clued together. They then added a pre amp which, in some part, can compensate.
As it happens, both my basses are made by the same company..and they only had two luthiers, but there are
definite tone characteristics between the fret boards, so I am prety sure body wood matters as well.
But... most buyers only get a say in whether they like the finished article as presented..
That is the way it is............

I like the look of maple but the sound of RW...so my next bass made will have a RW neck spec.

[Dad3353]

... and I'd suggest (with no proof...) that the fingerboard essence has even less influence than the body, already less than minimal. It appears to me (entirely subjectively, I'll grant...) that even if there is a measurable difference, the psychological perception of difference would be even greater. Small, still, but greater than the concrete difference. I may be wrong, of course, and it matters little, as it can't realistically be proven one way or another, but if a luthier were to 'cheat' and use a different wood than that stated, would the acquirer really hear the substitution..? Feel, maybe. I'll allow that much, but hear..? Hmm...

[discreet]

[quote name='Dad3353']...if a luthier were to 'cheat' and use a different wood than that stated, would the acquirer really hear the substitution..?
[/quote]

No! Why this continuing belief in the supernatural? It's akin to mental illness!!

Edited October 18, 2014 by discreet