Fills above 12th fret get lost in the mix

[John Cellario]

This has been bugging me for years now and I'm getting very OCD about it...... when I go to play above the 12th fret to step out with the band and put in a tasty little fill, which I hope will jump out in the mix, the D and G string notes seem to die volume wise and be of far less prominence than the other two strings, which is highly disappointing. I'm sure in my younger days, when a high fill like this was played, other band members would turn round and notice!

In my efforts to address this, I've gone through one Jazz bass, one custom and now a Sandberg thinking it must be the guitar but it has made no difference..also have bought a 2 x 10" cab to bring out the highs which didn't help. I've got good gear...EBS amp, Hartke cabs etc and go for a Jazz boppy back pick up type sound so not much if any treble EQ wise. Years ago, I had a 3" horn on a crossover on top of my 15" cab which really helped.

Anyone have similar problems? My other thought is as I'm getting more senior in years, my hearing may be worsening...a friend of my with hearing problems, reckons you lose the top end in the hearing spectrum as you get older.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance.

[JamesBass]

You certainly do loose top end first, so if you're worried about that get a hearing test done, the results might shock you!

As for in the mix, have you tried raising the pickup on the D and G string side, that may help a little and if not then there could well be something in the mix that is sitting on top of your fills as you play them. The gear certainly doesn't sound like the problem, although EQing could be a problem?

Hope that helps

[BigRedX]

What's the band instrumentation?

I find that a lot of the time when you get into that kind of note range on the D and G strings the tonal quality can be too close to that of the guitars to stand out sufficiently. On the other hand it can be used as an effect - my band does a few songs where the guitar and bass play in unison. When they are in the same octave it sounds like a thickening of the guitar sound, then when the bass drops to an octave lower it really stands out and kicks the song up another notch.

I'd be looking at the song arrangements first and then the relative tones of the bass and any instruments playing in the same octave that might be masking it.

[John Cellario]

Hi JamesBass

I forgot to mention, I had played around raising the pick up on the D and G but it hardly, suprisingly, made any difference. I also suspect the 2 guitars in the band cancel out a lot of my notes as their bottom end notes maybe clash with my top end notes making them inaudible. We have an intro on one song just keyboards, drums and bass, and on this, I can hear myself far more clearer.

[John Cellario]

Big RedX

Late again with my reply which echoes your post!

[BigRedX]

I find that what sounds like a great guitar tone when played on its own can very often have far more bottom end than is required when playing in a band situation. If you can persuade your guitarists to roll off some of the bass on their amps just as an experiment and see if that helps with the clarity of the higher bass notes while not really affecting the overall band sound.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1376224524' post='2170927']
I find that what sounds like a great guitar tone when played on its own can very often have far more bottom end than is required when playing in a band situation. If you can persuade your guitarists to roll off some of the bass on their amps just as an experiment and see if that helps with the clarity of the higher bass notes while not really affecting the overall band sound.
[/quote]

This is a common complaint, I suspect - it's one my rythmn guitarist is certainly guilty of. He hears something on record, decides that's what he should sound like, and forgets it's a band sound - and that the bass can really help him to achieve that! So off he goes with his EQ, and you get mud.

[chris_b]

You go to play where?

[JamesBass]

Certainly sounds to me like you guys as a band need to appreciate the EQ ranges, perhaps one band practice you bring it up and get the singer to adjust the EQ settings as you all go?

Having the understanding as a band that a good EQ can help with your overall sound will improve you as a band, you become more aware of who is playing what and where in the mix it all lies, getting in to the studio helped with my band, you really don't realise at times just how much you step on each others ranges!

[Dingus]

About you upper register fills getting lost , less percieved volume and overall audibility on the D and G strings is a fairly common complaint from many players about traditional Fender -style basses , and was a reason commonly cited back in the 1980's for moving away from those traditional basses to the more hi- fi , hi- tech designs that were fashionable at that time . I usually play Fender -style basses I have never really felt it was much of a problem myself , and I am not averse to a swift upper -register fill myself . I enjoy the extra bit of clunkyness you get with those designs . If you want to try and bring those runs out to the forefront more , try adding some more mids to your sound , as much as you can without sounding too honky . It's those frequencies rather than the top end that will get you heard , especially above the twelth fret . If you could try a bass with a graphite neck or similar , that you knew had a very even output in all registers and then record yourself with the band a see if it remedied the problem then that would be one way to confirm if what was bothering you was just part and parcel of using Fender- style basses , as I suspect it is .

[Marvin]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1376225376' post='2170949']
You go to play where?
[/quote]

My thoughts exactly. There's a reason they get lost in the mix...you're not supposed to play up around there, it is a bass afterall

[discreet]

I had this problem too until I got my dbx 166A compressor. Light (3:1 or 4:1 comp ratio) compression does it for me. Evens up the output of each string nicely without compromising on dymamics. I'm getting a rackmount bass sansamp soon which has an effects loop with 50/50 mix option, so I'm looking forward to trying parallel compression... check this site out for bass compressor information, reviews and recommendations:

[url="http://www.ovnilab.com/"]http://www.ovnilab.com/[/url]

Edited August 11, 2013 by discreet

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='John Cellario' timestamp='1376223251' post='2170899']In my efforts to address this, I've gone through one Jazz bass, one custom and now a Sandberg thinking it must be the guitar but it has made no difference..[/quote]

Yeah. If you'd changed bands you might have noticed an improvement. You're getting right up into guitar and voice territory and there's much more competition for frequencies in that range.

[Lozz196]

Four areas I`d look at:

Compression
More mids on your eq
Less bass on the guitars eq
Play these runs an octave lower, it`s a bass!

[BottomE]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1376245733' post='2171283']
Four areas I`d look at:

Compression
More mids on your eq
Less bass on the guitars eq
Play these runs an octave lower, it`s a bass!
[/quote]

I'd agree with the first 3 but hey guys lets have a little more love for the dusty bit of the neck please. I know what the OP means and to some degree i have stopped fiddling up around past 12th fret in a gig cos there is a lot of competition for those frequencies. You can control your own EQ but (unfortunately) not that of everyone else. Maybe having fixed arrangements to tunes might helps cos you will know when there is a potential bit of space to play with. Just ask nicely that others don't fill that space too.

[davehux]

Get rid of those funny little wires than some fool stuck on your neck, kick in the chorus pedal and then get anoodling up at the dusty end.

Ain't no-one gonna stop you now

[discreet]

I think it was Charles Sawtelle who said, 'There's no money above the fifth fret...'

[TimR]

Try an EQ pedal. Boost the highs just for your 'solo'.

[JTUK]

Shouldn't be a problem if you set the bass up for this when you soundcheck...
You should be able to cut throw during quite powerful passages with the whole band playing.

Compression might work but I've found it not always required.

The thing is, you don't want to find this out right at the last minute during the song.
If that part of the bass sound is important to you, you need to set the whole bass sound up for it...

[Guest bassman7755]

Firstly have you verified that the problem exists in your out-front sound, rather than just on stage ?.

If it is a problem then try raising the pickups on the side of the thinner strings (or lowering them on the other side), also as others have mentioned, a small amount of compression will help.

[phil.i.stein]

anything above the 12th is for musicians, not bass-players.

[BassTractor]

[quote name='phil.i.stein' timestamp='1376342609' post='2172619']
anything above the 12th is for musicians, not bass-players.
[/quote]

Huh? We share genes with drummers and sopranos?

best,
bert

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='phil.i.stein' timestamp='1376342609' post='2172619']
anything above the 12th is for musicians, not bass-players. [/quote]

I was once introduced to an actual musician with the line 'This is Kev, he's a musician', and I immediately replied 'Well, I'm a bass player'.

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1376343905' post='2172665']
Huh? We share genes with drummers and sopranos?

best,
bert
[/quote]

there are one or two sopranos i wouldn't mind sharing genes with, but i've banned myself from OT for good reason.

[arthurhenry]

Use two amps. Split the signal from your bass into a bass amp for lows and a small guitar combo for highs/upper mids. That way you can adjust levels of each without compromising the other. I use a 500 watt bass head and 30 watt guitar amp, which isn't a problem since the highs cut through so well - and it's portable.