rickenbacker police

[Stacker]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1363255147' post='2010411']
[sup]The sadistic humour in me thinks it would be funny to set up thousands of fake ads of non existent fake Rics all over the net. Should keep the Ric patrol busy for a while.[/sup]
[/quote]
I think that idea was mooted last year. Would be worth it, even the couple of quid on ebay, to have a laff!

[SteveK]

Gonna go against the flow here.
I can't really see what the problem is with Rickenbacker's stance on this. They see instruments such as those in the op's photo as being counterfeit and take the appropriate measures.
I'm sure Rickenbacker have, in the past, spent a lot of time, money, blood, sweat and tears designing and manufacturing a quality product. Doesn't seem quite right to me that someone can come along and say, " Ooooh, what a fantastic looking bass, I can make one that looks identical and sell it for a fraction of the price"... As I say, doesn't seem right to me.

If you want something that looks like a Rickenbacker - buy a Rickenbacker!

[throwoff]

It is not counterfeit. Noone is selling this as a Ric.

Eventually someone will take it to court with J Hall and win, same as when Gibson started their insane war on PRS singlecuts a few years ago.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1363258752' post='2010507']I'm sure Rickenbacker have, in the past, spent a lot of time, money, blood, sweat and tears designing and manufacturing a quality product.[/quote]

So why did this product never come to market?

Edited March 14, 2013 by EBS_freak

[charic]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1363259982' post='2010530']
So why did this product never come to market?
[/quote]

It was another P bass clone

[jonsmith]

[quote name='throwoff' timestamp='1363259341' post='2010515']
It is not counterfeit. Noone is selling this as a Ric.

Eventually someone will take it to court with J Hall and win, same as when Gibson started their insane war on PRS singlecuts a few years ago.
[/quote]

One of the main reasons Gibson lost that case was because - unlike Rickenbacker - they could not demonstrate that they had taken reasonable steps to protect their design in the past, on account of the huge amount of unchallenged LP copies. That's actually the reason that Rickenbacker pursue this so ruthlessly. It's not the photo or the wording in the adverts that infringes on a protected design, but the actual item for sale.

I'm surprised that a company trying to protect its own designs provokes such a negative response, but there you go.

Edited March 14, 2013 by jonsmith

[BigRedX]

[quote name='jonsmith' timestamp='1363262137' post='2010565']
I'm surprised that a company trying to protect its own designs provokes such a negative response, but there you go.
[/quote]

They provoke such a negative response because of the way they go about trying to enforce their copyright.

I'm sure we'd all be a little more forgiving if they could show that they were actually talking serious steps to stop the production (or at least the importing) of all the new copies like the Rockinbetter, Shine, Indie and Bass Collection models. However all we see is RIC taking the cheap and easy option of getting eBay sales of copies made over 30 years ago, stopped. This makes them come across as a company that is petty and vindictive, rather than one seriously fighting to prevent devaluation of their brand from sub-standard unauthorised copies.

[Norris]

I've owned a genuine one in the past. I would have liked to own one again. I doubt I will now though.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1363259982' post='2010530']
So why did this product never come to market?[/quote]

Coffee>Monitor!

[Big_Stu]

As can be seen from old TOTP videos John Birch made a fair few Rick copies without being stopped.
However I believe his surviving business partner has been given a cease & desist notice after he had a modern John Birch (AD) 4001 well reviewed in G&B magazine.

In opined that a JB was way in excess of a Rick in terms of build quality, price & function on Rick-Resource. Some guy who looks too much like Jimmy Hill for his own good took me viciously to task and then deleted my post. They don't like t up 'em!

[The Dark Lord]

I'm sorry, but I fully support the "Rickenbacker Police". It is a blatant copy making money off the back of someone else's design and reputation.

Bass makers of the world ........ make your own designs !!!!!!!

[Dr M]

[quote name='jonsmith' timestamp='1363262137' post='2010565']
One of the main reasons Gibson lost that case was because - unlike Rickenbacker - they could not demonstrate that they had taken reasonable steps to protect their design in the past, on account of the huge amount of unchallenged LP copies. That's actually the reason that Rickenbacker pursue this so ruthlessly. It's not the photo or the wording in the adverts that infringes on a protected design, but the actual item for sale.

I'm surprised that a company trying to protect its own designs provokes such a negative response, but there you go.
[/quote]

I thought one of the main reasons Gibson lost that case was the fact that the PRS singlecut looks bugger-all like a Les Paul? I seem to remember the judge was quoted as saying something along the lines of "no-one in a position to actually care about it would confuse the two."

[flyfisher]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1363258752' post='2010507']
Gonna go against the flow here.
I can't really see what the problem is with Rickenbacker's stance on this. They see instruments such as those in the op's photo as being counterfeit and take the appropriate measures.
I'm sure Rickenbacker have, in the past, spent a lot of time, money, blood, sweat and tears designing and manufacturing a quality product. Doesn't seem quite right to me that someone can come along and say, " Ooooh, what a fantastic looking bass, I can make one that looks identical and sell it for a fraction of the price"... As I say, doesn't seem right to me.
[/quote]
I doubt they spent "a lot of time, money, blood, sweat and tears" developing their design. Let's face it, it's a piece of wood cut out in a particular shape. Yes, I know it's THEIR particular shape, and that's fine, but let's not get carried away that it's some sort of breakthrough in the world of musical instruments. If we were all so precious about IP then surely all electric basses should be licenced to Leo Fender? Yet the p-bass is probably the most-copied bass on the planet, but Fender still exists.

Anyway, no-one is being fooled by these things and they're not being passed off as the genuine article. People buy cheap copies because they can't afford the genuine article, so even if the Ric police pi$$ away loads of dosh on legal fees, they're unlikely to generate more sales of the original items.

As has been pointed out, they can't take on the big boys who are making these things so they're getting spiteful with the little people who buy them. Classic bullying tactics and inevitably unpopular.

You have to deal with the world as it is, not the way you'd wish it to be.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1363258752' post='2010507']
Gonna go against the flow here.
I can't really see what the problem is with Rickenbacker's stance on this. They see instruments such as those in the op's photo as being counterfeit and take the appropriate measures.
I'm sure Rickenbacker have, in the past, spent a lot of time, money, blood, sweat and tears designing and manufacturing a quality product. Doesn't seem quite right to me that someone can come along and say, " Ooooh, what a fantastic looking bass, I can make one that looks identical and sell it for a fraction of the price"... As I say, doesn't seem right to me.

If you want something that looks like a Rickenbacker - buy a Rickenbacker!
[/quote]
[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1363265755' post='2010653']
I'm sorry, but I fully support the "Rickenbacker Police". It is a blatant copy making money off the back of someone else's design and reputation.

Bass makers of the world ........ make your own designs !!!!!!!
[/quote]

I hope neither of you have ever bought own brand Cola, Cereals, generic aspirin, etc etc etc?

[EBS_freak]

Odd isn't it?

Nobody bats an eyelid about pianos, trumpets, violins, acoustic guitars etc all looking the same... but the second you slap some paint on your instrument and put some primative electronics in it, the world is up in arms...

It's almost as ridiculous as claiming the 3+1 machinehead headstock design...

[EBS_freak]

If you can be arsed.... bore yourself silly - [url="http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=91161403&pty=OPP&eno=246"]http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=91161403&pty=OPP&eno=246[/url]

[ezbass]

For all of the money Ric spend on lawyers chasing cheap copies, they could invest in their own offshore manufacturing centre and produce affordable, licensed products as Gibson, Fender and Musicman have done and actually then make some money than spending it.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1363265755' post='2010653']
I'm sorry, but I fully support the "Rickenbacker Police". It is a blatant copy making money off the back of someone else's design and reputation.

Bass makers of the world ........ make your own designs !!!!!!!
[/quote]

If Rickenbacker would sort out their manufacturing problems & reduce the waiting list I'm sure there'd be a little less demand for copies. When it gets to the point where the copies don't have the QC issues that modern Ricks have then it's an issue. When some copies are superior in all respects than Rick & other copies are a worthwhile trade-off then it's Rick that have the issues to fix. Clinging desperately to law rather than look into them is IMHO a serious mistake leading to potential buyers abandoning their plans which many posts on here acknowledge.

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1363271154' post='2010778']
Odd isn't it?

Nobody bats an eyelid about pianos, trumpets, violins, acoustic guitars etc all looking the same... but the second you slap some paint on your instrument and put some primative electronics in it, the world is up in arms...

It's almost as ridiculous as claiming the 3+1 machinehead headstock design...
[/quote]

This.
Only Just occurred to me.

You are right.

Antonio De Torres should sue everyone....

[BassTractor]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1363263720' post='2010603']
They provoke such a negative response because of the way they go about trying to enforce their copyright.
[..]
I'm sure we'd all be a little more forgiving if they could show that they were actually talking serious steps to stop the production
[..]
This makes them come across as a company that is petty and vindictive
[/quote]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1363269109' post='2010726']
they can't take on the big boys who are making these things so they're getting spiteful with the little people who buy them. Classic bullying tactics and inevitably unpopular.

You have to deal with the world as it is, not the way you'd wish it to be.
[/quote]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1363271154' post='2010778']
Nobody bats an eyelid about pianos, trumpets, violins, acoustic guitars etc all looking the same... but the second you slap some paint on your instrument and put some primative electronics in it, the world is up in arms...
[/quote]


^^^^These.
Must admit that my thinking is still on the fence on this one, but the foul taste in my mouth is not.

I normally side with the copyright holder, the composer, the band etc... and will for example always pay for my music, and will pay a lot extra for an original medicine (at the cost of being looked upon as an idiot even by the seller of the expensive medicine), but I'm not likely to honour a company that goes about it in this way.

I've long had this list of basses that I decidedly was gonna own, and a Rickenbacker was always very firmly on the top of it.
However, I now own almost all of the other basses on that list, but because of the foul taste have not bought a Rick. Instead, my money has gone to Music Man three more times. Even though I could afford four Ricks, I'll probably rather have a copy that sounds good (if they exist).


best,
bert

[SteveK]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1363269664' post='2010743']
I hope neither of you have ever bought own brand Cola, Cereals, generic aspirin, etc etc etc?
[/quote]
That's the problem with threads such as this, examples are brought in to the discussion that bear no similarity to what is being discussed.
[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1363271154' post='2010778']
Odd isn't it?

[b]Nobody bats an eyelid about pianos, trumpets, violins, acoustic guitars etc all looking the same[/b]... but the second you slap some paint on your instrument and put some primative electronics in it, the world is up in arms...

It's almost as ridiculous as claiming the 3+1 machinehead headstock design...
[/quote]
But a Rickenbacker [b]doesn't[/b] look the same as any other bass, that's one of the beauties of most electric instruments, the manufacturer can use their imagination to create something different.

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1363259982' post='2010530']
So why did this product never come to market?
[/quote]

I've never owned a Rick nor even played one so can't vouch for their quality, or lack of.

[Big_Stu]

It's been discussed - or at least suggested & shot down in flames - on Rick Resource a few times that Rick should do a budget range along the lines of Squier & Epiphone which would destroy the copy market.
The response to that is that you can't compromise the legacy & quality of the original - and shouldn't have to make a lesser version for any reason. It's usually around the bit where it's pointed out that there are episodes where Squier or Epiphone are superior to their higher counterpart & that Rick already has QC issues that the thread is locked & deleted.

Strange, strange people.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1363273992' post='2010851']
But a Rickenbacker [b]doesn't[/b] look the same as any other bass...
[/quote]

In which case, there's no problem with the Rockinbetters....

A Rickenbacker copy looks like a Rickenbacker. A Jazz bass copy looks like a Jazz bass copy. A P bass copy looks like a P bass copy.... A Steinberger copy looks like a Steinberger copy.... A Hofner violin copy looks like a Hofner copy tedious, tedious, tedious...

OK, lets look at the Piano. There are essentially two types. An upright and a grand.

Same can be applied to the bass but there are more than two types. Lets say, there's a J bass, a P bass and Rickenbacker. They all sound like basses, they all look similar - traditionally they have a body, neck, headstock, 4 strings - they all fundamentally sound like basses (OK, difference in tone but an upright piano has a different tone to a grand)... and also, ask a bassist to play any of them, they can. How is a Ric that different... really?

It's only *some* bass players that care. The public wouldn't be any the wiser.

Edited March 14, 2013 by EBS_freak

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1363273992' post='2010851']
That's the problem with threads such as this, examples are brought in to the discussion that bear no similarity to what is being discussed.
[/quote]

In what way is it not relevant?

I fail to see any ethical difference between buying a cheap bottle of Cola that says "Tesco" on the label and tastes a lot like Coca Cola and buying a cheap bass that says "Rockinbetter" on the headstock and looks a lot like a Rickenbacker.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1363274628' post='2010864']
It's been discussed - or at least suggested & shot down in flames - on Rick Resource a few times that Rick should do a budget range along the lines of Squier & Epiphone which would destroy the copy market.
[/quote]

Trouble is, they can't get their top flight basses right, let alone a budget one. That's fundamentally the problem - the copies are probably better than the real mccoy. It happens - it build the Sadowsky brand when Fender were going through woeful QC issues.