Keyboard players - poor timing?

[mingsta]

I've been inactive for well over a decade, but as of last year picked things up again and have had a number of musical projects on the go. As part of this I've worked with 3 keyboard players in 2 bands. One thing I've noticed is that all of them have been pretty loose in terms of timekeeping (rhythm not punctuality!). Compared to our lead guitarist who could probably teach me a thing or too about being tight with the drums. I know that this is a pretty small sample section, but thats my first experience of playing in bands with keys. Have I just got unlucky or is there something about the instrument...???

[crez5150]

Gently say to him that his Quantisation is out on his sequencer ;o)

[discreet]

[quote name='mingsta' timestamp='1361793427' post='1990803']
...Have I just got unlucky or is there something about the instrument...???
[/quote]

There's certainly something about keyboard players! Maybe I've been unlucky too, but in my experience keyboard players are a right royal pain in the arse! Sweeping statement I know - and apologies to any keyboard players reading - but really.

Edit: I think it's mainly because they like to encroach on the bass player's territory frequency-wise and think that their crappy left-hand rubbish is better than your bass line. That, and they're self-important egotistical jizz-heads. And they always have to do an interminable 'solo' in [i]every [/i]freaking number!

Edited February 25, 2013 by discreet

[BigRedX]

Your obviously playing with the wrong musicians. All the keyboard players I've worked with have had excellent timing and great arrangement skills and know exactly how to fit they parts they play around the other instruments.

[BobVbass]

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] in my experience keyboard players are a right royal pain in the arse[/font][/color][/quote]

absolutely agree! the experience I've had with KB players ranges from OK but blasts over everyone else to absolute psychotic pedantry - I think mainly because almost every keyboard player learns solo on a piano from music so they generally lack the skills to fit in a band environment musically but also have less experience of gelling with the rhythm section that bassists, drummers or guitarists, who almost always develop their playing within a band, do

Edited February 25, 2013 by bob_pickard

[mingsta]

Haha

But at the same time I do sympathise with the role they play in a band. The drums and bass have very focussed roles and in a function/covers band scenario you always know what you need to do. Keys on the other hand often have to pick out an arrangement that will work out of potentially a dozen different parts while the rest of the band assumes that they can magically fill in all the gaps that their instruments can't achieve.

On side note, our current keys player brought round the most GAS (or is that KAS) inducing bit of kit round to mine last night. It was this big red thing with 88 weighted keys - a Nord something or other. Weighed a frickin ton, but it had a wooden modulator gizmo - WOOD. On a keyboard!!!!

[discreet]

[quote name='mingsta' timestamp='1361794246' post='1990825']
It was this big red thing with 88 weighted keys - a Nord something or other. Weighed a frickin ton, but it had a wooden modulator gizmo - WOOD. On a keyboard!!!!
[/quote]

A player in a previous band I was in had one of these, and I have to admit it sounded amazing. She still played it as if she was suffering from a stroke though, which she may well have been, come to think of it... [size=4] [/size]

[size=4][/size]

Edited February 25, 2013 by discreet

[xilddx]

Jesus :S

You guys need to play with decent musicians. Don't be blaming keys players en masse, that's just bloody stupid innit.

[discreet]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1361794517' post='1990831']
Don't be blaming keys players en masse, that's just bloody stupid innit.
[/quote]

Yeah, but it's more fun though, innit.

I've actually played with some brilliant keys players but I'm not going to come on here and list them, am I? Everyone would think I was a total dick, and quite rightly too. Where's the fun in that??

Edited February 25, 2013 by discreet

[xilddx]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1361794720' post='1990840']
Yeah, but it's more fun though, innit.
[/quote]
Not as much as taking the piss out of zil players with dupuytren's contracture

[mingsta]

Yeah thats the one. Its so red and sexy, I love it.

All those buttons scare me though, it keeps bringing flashbacks of the £109 quid that I wasted on a Zoom B9.1ut, which I still haven't figured out how to use.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1361794404' post='1990829']
A player in a previous band I was in had one of these, and I have to admit it sounded amazing. She still played it as if she was suffering from a stroke though, which she may well have been, come to think of it... [size=4] [/size]

[size=4][/size]
[/quote]

[discreet]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1361794981' post='1990849']
Not as much as taking the piss out of zil players with dupuytren's contracture
[/quote]

Now [i]that's[/i] funny - obviously I'm taking this thread far too seriously...

[discreet]

[quote name='mingsta' timestamp='1361795163' post='1990853']
...keeps bringing flashbacks of the £109 quid that I wasted on a Zoom B9.1ut, which I still haven't figured out how to use.
[/quote]

Sell it and buy a B3 - you'll have it sussed in about three minutes. Seriously.

[gapiro]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1361795336' post='1990858']
Sell it and buy a B3 - you'll have it sussed in about three minutes. Seriously.
[/quote]
+1 to that. And you can play around with it using your pc.



Our keyboard player is also a PITA in a personal way. Hes a brilliant musician, and nice bloke, but when someone hasn't learnt something, it is always him, and its always him who has to redo patches during rehearsals.... (although they often sound awesome at the end)

Edited February 25, 2013 by gapiro

[Lfalex v1.1]

Someone has to soften the sonic attack, I suppose.
One band I've been in was dominated by timing/delivery addicts, in particular myself, the drummer (obviously) one of the guitarists and even the singer.
Some people complained that our delivery was [i]too[/i] tight (is that even possible?) for the style of music we played (indie/art rock originals), and whilst the tempii weren't as furious, we sounded more like a metal band!
Fortunately, the other guitarist was more relaxed sounding.
No need to mention that he periodically doubled on keys....

[BassTractor]

As a keyboardist myself, I think I can imagine several reasons why that could be.
I have no definite answers, but here are some thoughts, some of them also mentioned by others:

1) IME, and in my seriously-not-humble opinion, in pop and rock music, most keyboard players can hardly play their instruments, as documented by almost every song shown on TV. They show some insecure, unsteady, stumbling and nervous playing that leaves me with the question whatever they did in the studio or whether they did anything there at all.

2) Many good keyboardists have learnt to express a personal view on the music. and may tend to bring that musical view with its timing complexities to bands as well.

3) Related to 2), they may be used to playing solo, and may have difficulties adapting to the demands of playing together.


BTW, not one of my own teachers pre college ever taught me to accompany other players or singers, and I had to learn the hard way.
These days, things hopefully are better.


best,
bert

[JTUK]

Bad timing = bad player in my book.

So, sure, pull them up on it.

But are they a keyb player or piano player....? I tend to prefer the latter as they will have a better grounding and probably far more time on it.
I don't like keyB who can make a very good stab at piano parts..

FWIW.. Nord is great stuff...and we are trading in a Kuzweil for Nord Stage 2.
Of course, they weigh in heavily...so we will drop down to 76 for a little gain there in weight and space..hopefully.

[topo morto]

Our keyboard player - clasically trained, can play a lot of fancy stuff, but can't deal with degrees of swing. Or in fact hear a lot of rhythms. Or have any idea of what the tempo of a song is.

[peteb]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1361793617' post='1990808']
There's certainly something about keyboard players! Maybe I've been unlucky too, but in my experience keyboard players are a right royal pain in the arse! Sweeping statement I know - and apologies to any keyboard players reading - but really.
[/quote]
[color=#222222]Dunno about being a "royal pain in the arse", but most of the good keys players I know tend to be somewhat ... eccentric to say the least...![/color]
[color=#222222][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#222222]No problems with them playing out of time though …[/color]

[Bass Lady]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1361811865' post='1991267']
As a keyboardist myself, I think I can imagine several reasons why that could be.
I have no definite answers, but here are some thoughts, some of them also mentioned by others:

1) IME, and in my seriously-not-humble opinion, in pop and rock music, most keyboard players can hardly play their instruments, as documented by almost every song shown on TV. They show some insecure, unsteady, stumbling and nervous playing that leaves me with the question whatever they did in the studio or whether they did anything there at all.

2) Many good keyboardists have learnt to express a personal view on the music. and may tend to bring that musical view with its timing complexities to bands as well.

3) Related to 2), they may be used to playing solo, and may have difficulties adapting to the demands of playing together.


BTW, not one of my own teachers pre college ever taught me to accompany other players or singers, and I had to learn the hard way.
These days, things hopefully are better.


best,
bert
[/quote]

Agree with you there Bert completely.

Must add, certainly in our school we try and get the keyboard / piano players to accompany at any given opportunity - saves me doing it! LOL

[hamfist]

Another key point is that, like drummers and decent vocalists, keyboard players are thin on the ground. Therefore people tend to not have to be so good before they get in a band. Guitarists are ten a penny. Therefore bands tend to get the pick of the crop if they are looking for one. With keys players there is more of a tendency to take what you can get.
Having said that, I have also played with a number of excellent keys players and have played keys in bands myself, even owned a Nord once ! However, a very common problem is the complete lack of understanding of how they actually should fit into a BAND. It's not difficult to see where this comes from, as they almost always are piano-trained and used to playing solo. I don't think it is so much the lack of experience playing with others, as they often do a lot of accompanying work. But fitting into a band with a dedicated rhythm and bass section, with other chordal instruments too is a whole new skill set. And the curse of the keyboardist's left hand continues !

Edited February 26, 2013 by hamfist

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1361794009' post='1990816']
Your obviously playing with the wrong musicians. All the keyboard players I've worked with have had excellent timing and great arrangement skills and know exactly how to fit they parts they play around the other instruments.
[/quote]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1361794517' post='1990831']
Jesus :S

You guys need to play with decent musicians. Don't be blaming keys players en masse, that's just bloody stupid innit.
[/quote]

Agreed.

[leschirons]

It's like any other instrument. Find a good player, and they're good. Find a crap one, and they're crap.

So, have a look around for a better keyboard player.

Funnily enough, the best one I've played with in a band situation had only been playing a year. He'd been a seriously good, dedicated rhythm guitarist for 20 years and I believe it takes a very good player to fill that role. He was so sympathetic to the songs and was able to bring all his knowledge of harmony etc into his keyboard playing. Fantastic bit of kit too. Korg SV1 with the onboard preamp tube.

[charic]

Being a keyboard player is a funny one. Personally I've been playing since I was 5 but still struggle to "feel" music on a keyboard. Also as other people have pointed out, it is usually a solo instrument for many years before they'll find a band that isn't some school project or someone looking for a piano player as such most develop their skills as a "lead" instrument. That's all well and good unless you've already got a lead guitar.

Most bands these days just want strings / synth pads at some points in the songs. Do any of you realise how DULL that is to play?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1361868094' post='1992000']
... Most bands these days just want strings / synth pads at some points in the songs.
[/quote]
I don't think so.