Take a look at this on JOIN MY BAND!!!

[TheRev]

It's not technically 'pay to play', as there's no mention of a financial penalty if your promised 20 mates don't turn up.... just as there's no mention of how much you get paid for lucky punter 21.

Look, everyone knows that these showcase gigs are a waste of time, everyone knows that these self labelled promoters are nothing of the sort. Stuff em! Instead of getting annoyed, put the effort into putting your own night on, that's what we do.

Hire the venue, get your band and 20 of your mates. Get another 3 bands plus their mates. Charge 3 or 5 quid on the door and split the cash between the 4 bands and the venue gets the bar.

No-one gets rich doing this but no-one gets shafted either. Even if the night makes no money whatsoever, as long as you've covered the venue hire costs, you get to have a nice little gig without lining the pockets of some patronising, deluded 'promoter'.

Edited January 22, 2013 by TheRev

[PaulWarning]

this kind of thing is ok for bands starting out, basically you're playing for nothing which I've done in the past just to get support slots to name bands. If you don't want to play for nothing don't do it, simple.

[JTUK]

If you can't get gigs, then you may have to look at avenues like this...
If you can, you wont....

Instead of getting upset about a venture like this, make sure your band is worth paying...

[danthevan]

Trouble is, there are plenty of bands that will do it still.
5 bands, 20 people per band, 100 people through the door, 600 quid. Say tenner a head for drinks, venue gets 1600 quid, bungs the 'promoter' 200 quid an its win win. Do that 5 nights a week and your sh*tty little pub that didn't used to have a weekday trade is now a music venue.
Also notice that the 'promoting company' is also part of another company.

[lojo]

Ok, for most of us this is something we would to get involved with and be critical of, and rightly so

However, there are bands out there you just want to play live and don't get much chance and can't organise it themselves, so if this works for them and gives them a good night, along with their mates who will come and watch, then everyone gets something out of it. But there is great risk involved it could be naff. The fact that if it goes well they won't share any profit with any bands is a different issue I think.

There are a few teen bands I know of that would benefit from this type of set up, they maybe being used, but they'll get to play, with little risk if they don't pull it off that well.

Edited January 22, 2013 by lojo

[thebrig]

This is what Green Roadie Promotions posted on Join My Band a couple of hours ago.
I have to stress that I am not against playing for free, like jam nights/open mics, where there is no admission charge, but I do think that if people are having to pay £6 to see you, then that's a different ball game altogether.
Just my opinion of course, and I stand to be corrected, if I'm out of order for thinking this.

[font=arial][size=5]Green Roadie Promotions[/size][/font]
[font=arial][size=2]London[/size][/font]
[font=arial][size=2]Posted: Jan 23, 2013 5:08 pm[/size][/font]

[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3][b][i]The only reason you would not get paid, is if you mislead us to believe you can bring 20 attending fans. All bands get paid from the 21st person attending to see them, unless agreed otherwise. Unfortunately due to the music industry being hit so hard, venue's have become strict about what they want. Otherwise we would be more than happy to offer a free reign. Admittedly it does make it harder for new bands, but there are ways of building up your fan base before taking the step into demanding gigs.[/i][/b][/size][/font][/color]

[i]This is my reply:[/i]
[b][i][font=arial][size=3]We NEVER demand gigs, we POLITELY ask for them by going to the venues (mostly pubs), and offering them a demo CD to assess us before booking us, or giving them references from other venues if we have not played there before. [/size][/font]
[font=arial][size=3]We do expect to be paid a fair rate for providing the music for their customers, who would normally expect live music, if it is a venue that attracts customers, by advertising the fact that they are a live music venue. [/size][/font]
[font=arial][size=3]We sometimes get gigs by doing a couple of numbers at jam nights for free, but none of these venues charge people to get in. [/size][/font]
[font=arial][size=3]But if like you, they were charging £6 at the door, then surely, some of that should go to the people who are providing the entertainment, without having to bring along 20 people, just to get £5 for every person after that. [/size][/font]
[font=arial][size=3]I notice that you have worded it very carefully by saying, [/size][/font]
[font=arial][size=3]"All bands get paid from the 21st person attending to see them, unless agreed otherwise". [/size][/font]
[font=arial][size=3]Does that mean if there are a 100 people there, and only 21 of them have actually come to see us, we only get paid £5? [/size][/font]
[font=arial][size=3]If so, that's a total of £1 each for my band! [/size][/font]
[font=arial][size=3]Or is it the TOTAL amount after the 20 people we bring along, meaning we would get £200? [/size][/font]
[font=arial][size=3]I think I already know the answer to that![/size][/font][/i][/b]

Edited January 23, 2013 by thebrig

[dannybuoy]

Seems fairly standard to me, generous even, offering £5 per head after 20. Welcome to London.

[thebrig]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1358968931' post='1947916']
Seems fairly standard to me, generous even, offering £5 per head after 20. Welcome to London.
[/quote]
But I think it is only £5 per person after the twenty people you brought along, [u]who have come to watch you[/u]!
Not EVERY person over twenty.

[dannybuoy]

I know. Most offer about £1 or nothing at all though!

[Lozz196]

£1 per gig, welcome to fame, fortune & the glamour of originals.

[dannybuoy]

I've played a ton of gigs in London - the couple of times I got paid I was well chuffed. Nearly had enough to buy a packet of (cheap) strings.

[jackers]

this sort of thing is rife in Reading. In my last band we used to make the most of it. We would agree to play and go along with all their rambling about bringing people, but would use the 'gigs' to chat to the other bands and see them play. If we liked them then we would get their numbers and put on our own gigs with the bands.

[Earbrass]

I also don't get the outrage over this. If you think you're being offered a crap deal, then don't take it. If you think you could make more money setting up and promoting your own gig, then do that. But don't act as if you've a [b]right[/b] to be offered a better deal, cos you don't.

[thebrig]

Trouble is, with more and more of these type of so-called promoters stating that, [b][i]"due to the music industry being hit so hard",[/i][/b] and making out that they are doing us a favour by staging these type of events, then if we go along with it, eventually ALL the pubs and venues will go along with it too, and then we might as well all call it a day!
Just take a look at how many venues these promoters have already got their claws into, if this continues, we are all in big trouble.
[i][b][color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Barfly Camden [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Proud Camden [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Underbelly [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Camden Rock [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Enterprise [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Road Trip & The Workshop (Old Street) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Rattlesnake (Angel) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Acklam Village Market [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Surya (Kings Cross) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Heroes (Camden Town) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Luxe (Spitalfields) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Babalou (Brixton) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Nambucca (Holloway) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Horatia (Shoreditch) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Mass Club (Brixton) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Bridge House II [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Hideaway (Archway) [/size][/font][/color][/b][/i]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3][i][b]Annies Bar (Kentish Town[/b][/i])[/size][/font][/color]
No one is saying we have a [b][i]right[/i][/b] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]to be offered a better deal, but we should have some pride in what we do, and at least try to get some reward for what we do, no matter how small.[/font][/color]

[BigRedX]

I still don't see what the problem is.

From my own personal experience there doesn't seem to be any shortage of paying London gigs if your band are entertaining enough.

And that massive list you've posted is exactly why these promotors will fail. They've spread themselves far too thinly. I really don't think there are enough gullible bands out there to fuel that number of nights for long. Eventually venues will be asking why the evenings are only half -filled with bands and almost devoid of punters buying drinks (because that's the bottom line) and then the bubble will burst.

[thebrig]

I see what you are trying to say, but there will always be bands willing to do these type of gigs, and if they do catch on, then what seems like [u]plenty[/u] of [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]paying London gigs, might soon become [u]not[/u] many [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]paying London gigs![/font][/color]

[BigRedX]

This type of gig has been around since I first started playing in London in the mid 80s, and I'm sure that they were around even earlier than that.

Back then there were the same doom and gloom attitudes about how all the small gigs would be pay to play, and guess what? There were still paying gigs available for those bands who merited them. And there still are now. The venue names change but overall everything remains as it has always been.

[thebrig]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1358980332' post='1948197']
This type of gig has been around since I first started playing in London in the mid 80s, and I'm sure that they were around even earlier than that.

Back then there were the same doom and gloom attitudes about how all the small gigs would be pay to play, and guess what? There were still paying gigs available for those bands who merited them. And there still are now. The venue names change but overall everything remains as it has always been.
[/quote]
I'm sure you are right, but it still worries me all the same!

[WHUFC BASS]

Treat it as a free half hour rehearsal. Don't tell your mates if you don't want to and just turn up, do the gig and leave. If they ask you where your 20 mates are, tell them they're round your house giving your mother a seeing to.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1358856456' post='1945994']
Welcome to the 'music business'. Prepare to get shafted.
[/quote]

I believe that's

"[size=2]music [size=6]BUSINESS[size=3]" , but otherwise, yes, +1[/size][/size][/size]

[4 Strings]

What happens if you turn up to play and not all your 20 fans turn up? What if you get 10. Do you not play? This happened to the lad's band in a venue in London, they played, nothing came of it.

A friend's band had a worse deal where they had to buy around 40 tickets to be accepted to play. They sold most only to find they were being put on at 7pm, so most couldn't get there anyway. They pulled from the gig (only today) and now have to deal with refunds having given the ticket money to the venue in the first place. (https://www.facebook.com/events/480291642021025/502018893181633/?notif_t=plan_mall_activity)

I would have to say I wouldn't be accepting this sort of deal for my band.

[4 Strings]

Also reminds me of the Olympics, our sax player's band was offered a jazz spot by the Olympics organisers as part of the festival, but they weren't to be paid (he's a professional sax player). The benefit of playing to a good crowd, being part of the Olympics was to be enough. He said 'no'.

Were the doormen, bar staff, cleaners, technicians also doing it for nothing? I doubt it.

Had a similar thing in the Motown band, a charity do, we were asked to do it for half price. We did, good cause and all that. No food (had to go to a local pub for some grub), nowhere to get changed. Were the bar staff and anyone else paid half? Of course not. Did the band get thanked for our £600 contribution to the charity? No. It was made clear that we could have one non-alcoholic drink from the bar and we were asked to hurry to clear away so the staff could go home. I was not my normally cheerful giver that night.

Ok, rant over.

Edited January 24, 2013 by 4 Strings

[jackers]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1359029689' post='1948638']
Also reminds me of the Olympics, our sax player's band was offered a jazz spot by the Olympics organisers as part of the festival, but they weren't to be paid (he's a professional sax player). The benefit of playing to a good crowd, being part of the Olympics was to be enough. He said 'no'.

Were the doormen, bar staff, cleaners, technicians also doing it for nothing? I doubt it.

Had a similar thing in the Motown band, a charity do, we were asked to do it for half price. We did, good cause and all that. No food (had to go to a local pub for some grub), nowhere to get changed. Were the bar staff and anyone else paid half? Of course not. Did the band get thanked for our £600 contribution to the charity? No. It was made clear that we could have one non-alcoholic drink from the bar and we were asked to hurry to clear away so the staff could go home. I was not my normally cheerful giver that night.

Ok, rant over.
[/quote]

I've noticed that alot of places and people treat live music as a bit of an 'extra'. They don't see the musicians as professionals, even if they do it for a living, so people get a bit indignant when they find out they are expected to pay them as they would bar staff and caterers.

[0175westwood29]

as my band is new, i dnt expect to get paid gigs straight away! so im willing to not get paid to get a gig at a good venue! we recently played at a 400 capacity place to hopefully get our foot in the door and it worked got booked to support a couple of bigger bands.

im happy to play for nothing to get our name out and get a support group going! but we work hard to promote our gigs, as do the promoters.

but that add is bad!! i think you just get a vibe from some ppl that they want you to do all the work!!

some promoters also only work on numbers not quailty of the band. recently applied for a festival and they didnt want any links videos, songs all they wanted was a number of people we could bring?! WTF.....i realise numbers are important but if you advertive a night more than 1 pic on facebook the night before you can get a reasonable turn out.

andy

[WHUFC BASS]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1359029076' post='1948624']
What happens if you turn up to play and not all your 20 fans turn up? What if you get 10. Do you not play? This happened to the lad's band in a venue in London, they played, nothing came of it.[/quote]

See my previous post.