derrenleepoole Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 So here's the thing, I've been gigging and playing live for well over twenty years. So I would like to think I know a thing or two here there about using mics etc. Not an expert mind, but I know enough to get me by. So here's the thing, when a mic starts to feedback, I've always assumed the quickest way to kill the loop if there's no other option is to cover the microphone, maybe with your hand, thus stopping the signal reaching the mic, thus preventing the feedback. Now I did this recently at a gig and the guitarist in our band when nuts saying you never do that! Ever! As it makes the feedback worse. Now our guitarist is very experienced, but this left me a little confused - if you're stopping a signal reaching a mic, you're preventing the feedback. Any of you enlightened chaps like to shed a little light on microphone myths, falsehoods and truths? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Depends on the mic but he is right to an extent......try cupping your hands around an SM58 when live..... not good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 My own unenlightened experience is that nothing makes a mic start to feed back faster than covering it with your hand ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1335523945' post='1632524'] My own unenlightened experience is that nothing makes a mic start to feed back faster than covering it with your hand ... [/quote] This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Nope - it's generally not a good idea to cup the average (e.g. SM58) vocal mic. It effectively changes the pickup pattern of the mic, making it more sensitive in some directions. Since you're cupping it while feedback is occurring that means there's already a loud howl in the PA and making the mic MORE sensitive will mean more of that howl will reach the mic. As the user of the mic there's not a lot you can do. Stepping AWAY from the mic will sometimes help but the only real solution at the point of feedback is to reduce the gain at the mixer slightly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrenleepoole Posted April 27, 2012 Author Share Posted April 27, 2012 [quote name='BOD2' timestamp='1335524502' post='1632539'] Nope - it's generally not a good idea to cup the average (e.g. SM58) vocal mic. It effectively changes the pickup pattern of the mic, making it more sensitive in some directions. Since you're cupping it while feedback is occurring that means there's already a loud howl in the PA and making the mic MORE sensitive will mean more of that howl will reach the mic. As the user of the mic there's not a lot you can do. Stepping AWAY from the mic will sometimes help but the only real solution at the point of feedback is to reduce the gain at the mixer slightly. [/quote] Thanks guys... now it makes sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 There are some things that you should cup your hands round, but a microphone isn't one of them. Reduce gain, bring back behind line of PA, angle it so it's not pointing straight at the wall behind you that's reflecting the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Vincent Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 I need to know where you got your avatar from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 If you cup a mic then it could increase feedback. If you sufficiently insulate it with your hand, then obviously it would kill the feedback. Maybe I have some weird super hands, but it generally works for me when using a 57 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) Exactly. All it does is [u]alter[/u] the pickup characteristic of the mic, so it might make things better or worse, as can just moving about in front of the mic if the system is on the verge of howling. Edited April 27, 2012 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 I find the best thing to do is get a mic with an on/off switch and if you get feedback then just switch it off. Simples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rOB Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 [quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1335530570' post='1632711'] I find the best thing to do is get a mic with an on/off switch and if you get feedback then just switch it off. Simples. [/quote] Yep, that works for me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Yep . . . or a better sound engineer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 As a matter of course when setting up a PA I check that cupping the vocal mic(s) doesnt induce feedback, Careful use of a decent 32 band graphic and some knowledge of likely ways to generate feedback can greatly reduce the chance of it occuring during the gig. Then again, I often mix 'backwards' live. That is, I get the vocal level, add the guitar(s) and keys, "bass and drums" in that order to FOH, so the band is mixed up to the max vocal level before feedback. Usually ends up being loud enough, sometimes you even have to back it off. Either way the punters never complain it was too quiet, instead they like that they can hear the entire band including the vocals..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 That's the way I do it. Although trying to get a drummer to play quietly is something we've all struggled with. SM57 are more unidirectional. Usual source of feedback is a blank wall behind the singer. All is ok until singer steps sideways. Another is low ceiling. Training your singer where (not?) to point the mic is the best thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 As others have said, unless you completely cover the mic then you'll change its pick up pattern which might make it worse. Your hand could simply act as a reflector, bouncing the fold back into the front of the mic. Shoving it under your arm pit (arm down) generally works, but may not be desirable, depending on the state of your arm pit! If the mic doesn't have a switch then get one of those switching Female XLR connectors from Neutrik [color=#666666][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]([/font][/color][url="http://www.neutrik.com/en/xlr/fxs-series/nc3fxs"]NC3FXS[/url][color=#666666][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]) [/font][/color]! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 With regard to the On/Off switch thing, I used to wonder why so many studios taped the switch in the On position until I found myself responsible for the band's PA. The combination of ear-splitting pops when mics were suddenly switched off then on again, coupled with the inevitable "[i]It's not working[/i]" complaint from people who'd forgotten that they'd switched them off soon had me reaching for the electrical tape ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1335535942' post='1632817'] With regard to the On/Off switch thing, I used to wonder why so many studios taped the switch in the On position until I found myself responsible for the band's PA. The combination of ear-splitting pops when mics were suddenly switched off then on again, coupled with the inevitable "[i]It's not working[/i]" complaint from people who'd forgotten that they'd switched them off soon had me reaching for the electrical tape ... [/quote] Souvenir, souvenir..! The heady days of WEM PA's and Simms-Watts mic's..! Ah, yes, I remember it well... Edited April 27, 2012 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 [quote name='rOB' timestamp='1335530623' post='1632713'] Yep, that works for me too. [/quote] it's what the switch is for...after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1335535942' post='1632817'] With regard to the On/Off switch thing, I used to wonder why so many studios taped the switch in the On position until I found myself responsible for the band's PA. The combination of ear-splitting pops when mics were suddenly switched off then on again, coupled with the inevitable "[i]It's not working[/i]" complaint from people who'd forgotten that they'd switched them off soon had me reaching for the electrical tape ... [/quote] I have to agree with happy Jack on this one. IME if a mic has an on-off switch that is at all accessible it will get moved to the wrong position at the most critical time. I'd try and set up the PA so that the vocal mics were still a long way from feeding back. There's nothing worse than fighting with the levels when your constantly on the verge of getting feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1335538483' post='1632871'] I have to agree with happy Jack on this one. IME if a mic has an on-off switch that is at all accessible it will get moved to the wrong position at the most critical time. I'd try and set up the PA so that the vocal mics were still a long way from feeding back. There's nothing worse than fighting with the levels when your constantly on the verge of getting feedback. [/quote] Like all things you should only be allowed an on-off switch if you've got the brain to use it properly! I've never come across a problem with popping when switching on and off (with dynamic mics anyway) as long as the switch shorts the signal rather than disconnects it! I agree on setting up the mics "conservatively" in principle, but so much depends on the basic volume of what you're micing. In my (limited) experience quiet singers are a nightmare in a live situation. Edited April 27, 2012 by Count Bassy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 I'd like to dispel the myth that you check a microphone by tapping it with your fingers. All kinds of wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 You cant bend the laws of physics here. If the singer is quiet its as often as not fear of the mic. If they use a mic like an SM58 with their top lip touching the basket, then they would need to be truly quiet to be not generating enough signal to get them over a reasonable band, given reasonable acoustics in the room blah blah. Gently pointing that out to them will usually win you friends in the vocalist department. You can then follow that up as they gain confidence by pointing out that they can help the sound by pulling the mic off their mouth as the get to the loudest bits of their performance (assuming they've got that much louder) - better than a compressor by a long way.... If a singer truly is too quiet, they arent a singer, anfd there is nothing you can do for them at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1335535942' post='1632817'] With regard to the On/Off switch thing, I used to wonder why so many studios taped the switch in the On position until I found myself responsible for the band's PA. The combination of ear-splitting pops when mics were suddenly switched off then on again, coupled with the inevitable "[i]It's not working[/i]" complaint from people who'd forgotten that they'd switched them off soon had me reaching for the electrical tape ... [/quote] Fortunately, since I am not a complete idiot, I make sure to check the switch if there is no sound. Mind you, we are talking about singers here so let's face it I can conceive of someone being that dim-witted... [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1335540078' post='1632915'] If a singer truly is too quiet, they aren't a singer, and there is nothing you can do for them at all. [/quote] We had one of them "try out" for the band last week. I even plugged in my headphones to the headphone output of the mixer whilst playing and I still couldn't hear him. I appreciate what you're saying, I guess if someone was doing harmonies or backing vocals then fair enough but I think certainly for what we do, I do not want someone thinking they can be our singer and not give it a bit of welly. I think there are some chancers out there who think that just because they can sing relatively in tune when whispering along to a song on "rockband" at home, or they can do a bit of growling at the bottom of their voice, that this makes them some kind of fantastic metal vocalist. Well I am afraid not son, because being able to sing in tune really quietly to yourself and being able to do it when you're belting it out are 2 different things. You've got to be a performer as well as being able to sing or scream or whatever. Edited April 27, 2012 by EdwardHimself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Hmm, rockband - I once had a student try to convince me that 2 hours a night on 'Guitar Hero' constituted practice. Cock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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