skankdelvar Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) If one frames a rant as a question, then every answer one receives - whether well-considered or underpinned by fact or statistic - will prove to be unsatisfactory unless it accords with one's opinion. In any event, I think it would be good to encourage less well-known luthiers. So please post some images of your Wal-alike, with some basic specs. And a link to your luthier* or some contact details. He'd probably welcome the publicity and I'm sure you wouldn't want to deny him a wider audience. It might encourage others to seek him out and offer him some business, which would - in turn - put some money in [i]his[/i] pocket at the expense of the profitmongers you instance. So - rather than just feeling nettled about excessive profits - you'd be doing something positive to address an issue about which you clearly have strong feelings. [size=2]* His name wouldn't be Kevin, would it?[/size] [color=#ffffff][size=2].[/size][/color] Edited January 25, 2012 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasted Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) It'd also tell messers Fodera, Smith and Ritter where to send their C&D letters. Edited January 25, 2012 by Toasted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 If Jimmy is concerned about legal issues arising from my suggestion above, he can PM me the details, which I will pass on to interested members on request. No, really. I think Jimmy's luthier deserves a break and if some good comes of this thread then all the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327492767' post='1512123'] Is that really good enough? Just because one person say its worth 5000 we except it? [/quote] Well I suppose you could start the ball rolling by popping into the Wal workshop to tell them to make you a MK3 six string and then inform them you've decided you're only going to pay £200 for it. Let us know how you get on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I know a luthier that charges approx £3K minimum for one of his instruments - he's forced to live on the premises of his workshop because, even at that price, he can't afford to live anywhere else. His instruments are works of art. Last report I saw said that Chinese average labour rates in the manufacturing business were 88p an hour (that's £6.60 a day if they were lucky enough to only work a 7.5 hour day!). My luthier friend will never be able to compete with this kind of pricing. My solicitor is currently charging me £360 an hour (that £2,700 a day). He's got years of experience and is one of the very best in his field in the country. He could charge less but why would he want to? As far as I'm concerned he's worth every penny because I am currently in desperate need of his services. Yes it 'hurts' me every month when his bill arrives but I always pay it immediately because I want to retain his services - a rare commodity. I've met a lot of luthiers & instrument retailers, not one of them appears to have any sort of significant money to their name - why on earth should they try to reduce their prices to compete with overseas manufacturers who can use £6 a day labour & nice big machines to cut their basses for them? Using your argument I am also seriously unethical - my company charges me out at £1,500 a day (that's a lot more than what they pay me of course). Should I should therefore go freelance & sell myself at minimum wage to be ethically correct? Of course this would mean I'd have to sell my house & maybe live in a caravan somewhere but at least my morals would be ethical. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeBrownBass Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I agree exactly with Molan. IIRC, Fodera's prices are what they are from charging a set rate per hour. So the really expensive basses are that much because they take a lot longer to build & the craftsmanship is amazing. I'm sure its been said, but a bass is worth what someones willing to pay for it. The same as anything else. I've got a friend at Uni who is 19 and has a £30000 cello. Its not the best you can get but it's what he's had to pay to get the instrument he needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327500530' post='1512382'] If thats how you see it then thats cool that was my point, I do not see it as ok and was checking with the community to see if people felt the same way as I do. We all have different beliefs and I respect that. [/quote] So what's your belief about the way such things should be handled? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I just want some Tunnocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinman Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I know. Let's all pitch our tents in the Fodera workshop (Occupy stylee) that'll teach them to mess with us consumers! What a ridiculous thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 [quote name='Tinman' timestamp='1327591091' post='1513874'] I know. Let's all pitch our tents in the Fodera workshop (Occupy stylee) that'll teach them to mess with us consumers! What a ridiculous thread. [/quote] Need to make sure we choose the right time of year - they have no air con so it's roasting in summer and the heating isn't great so it can get very cold in winter. It's also up a few flights of stairs with no lift so we'll need to be pretty fit to run up and down if we need the loo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinman Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) Is there a nice hotel nearby? If so, why don't we stay there and turn up at Fodera after we've had a nice breakfast That'll learn 'em!!! Edited January 26, 2012 by Tinman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 No aircon ?!? No lift ?!? Well that's me well and truly beaten then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmyp28 Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Tinman' timestamp='1327591091' post='1513874'] I know. Let's all pitch our tents in the Fodera workshop (Occupy stylee) that'll teach them to mess with us consumers! What a ridiculous thread. [/quote] yes of course some one trying to voice there opinion in manner of open debate on a website that is dedicate to that very ethos is truly ridiculous, what was I doing and thinking. Good to know though there are so many open minded people who are out there willing to debate an issue like adults and not just jump to troll like behaviour on the internet. Thank god I have realised the error of my ways. Thank you Fan boys I truly am a changed man. Edited January 26, 2012 by Jimmyp28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327593424' post='1513935'] yes of course some one trying to voice there opinion in manner of open debater on a website that is dedicate to that very ethos is truly ridiculous, what was I doing and thinking. Good to though there are so many open minded people who are out there willing to debate issue like adults and not just jump to troll like behaviour on the internet. Thank god I have realised the error of my ways. Thank you Fan boys I truly am a changed man. [/quote] Oh dear. Let's get one thing out of the way, I am not a "fan boy" - I do not own one of these basses and I do not aspire to own one. At the risk of being ignored again I will attempt to engage you in the "debate" you crave. Do you want to buy one of these basses or don't you? If you do want one then I could see you having a gripe about the prices if you don't have the readies. If you don't want one then I don't really understand why you think its your place to poke your oar in. Did you put in any of the work in the production of these basses? Did any sweat drip off your brow as the wood slowly and carefully took shape? No, and therefore In my opinion (seeing as you're so fond of opinions) you've got no right and no supportable platform from which to preach about how much someone charges for the product of [i]their[/i] labour. I would estimate that damn near everyone wants to pay less for everything. You're not exactly being revolutionary or revelatory here. But here's the rub - you don't get to set the price, the manufacturer does and they will charge as much as they think they can get away with and still make sales when it comes to high end commodity goods. If they get it wrong, they don't sell product and they go to the wall, or they sell at a loss and go to the wall, or they don't make enough profit to reinvest in better equipment/people/resources and suffer a slow, strangulated decline. Short of performing some sort of communist coup on the entire world in order to control prices on a worldwide scale, I don't really see what you can do about it other than have a good old moan, which to give you your due praise is something you have shown yourself to be particularly adept at. Now that it hasn't gone the way you wanted it to (and considering that the "debate" was based upon opinions rather than facts and it took place on an internet forum, are you really surprised?), you seem to be flouncing off in a huff. What a damp squib of a crusade! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 A story: A printer had a large and old printing press on which the business depended. You know the production line things the size of buildings. One day the press broke down, and try as they could they couldn't work out where it had broken down. In desperation they phoned up the previous manager of the print shop, he had worked there years, risen to the top and then retired when the company was bought out. They convinced him to work for them and he came in, walked around the machine for 15 minutes as they tried to get it going. Every so often he would lean up and listen to it. After a while he pulled a bit of chalk out of his pocket and marked an X on the side of the machine. "thats where the problem is" and sure enough when they opened it up there they found the problem. Well a few days later the old man bills them for his work for $5000. The manager was amazed at the cost and wrote back asking for an itemised bill so he could understand the cost better. The next day he got the itemised bill: One small chalk cross $1, knowing exactly where to put the chalk cross $4999 A question: Alan loves basses and thinks he can make great basses, so he starts in his shed, as he gets better he quits working at tesco's to work full time as a bass builder. He spends a lot of money on tools and just scrapes through the first few years. As his name gets out he gets more orders and after paying for his workshop rent, rates and tax, and advertising and promotions he takes home about £16,000. They are good basses. He gets married which give them more money then Mrs Alan gets pregnant. Alan needs more money, and so he trys to spend less on materials and charges a bit more, he works flat out which isn't fair on the wife really but keeps a roof over their heads, as they take home about £22,000. All this is hard work and it keeps coming in, he takes in another assistant Tom, and pays him the minimum wage- with extra hours he takes home £14,000, with the additional sales though Alan only has £20,000 to feed his family. He has to take his prices up again, one to support his family, and also to pay for the advertising he needs to generate enough sales to justify Tom. Anyway he's spent hours training Tom and Tom takes on more responsibility in a growing business, Tom is struggling to make the ends meet at minimum wage and also has to work unpaid sometimes to get jobs finished. It's almost unethical so tom takes the decision to relaunch the basses but doubles the price. With this he can pay Tom about £20,000 - still pittance for a skilled worker, and can take home £25,000 himself. The basses now cost about £2000. Which is a bit more than a high end Fender, and Alan has no mexicans to build his basses for cheap. Tom is messing around one day with a few ideas and comes up with a concept called the Tom, they price it up in terms of materials and man hours and to break even they will have to sell it at £3200 each, they offer a number of options that are popular, expensive woods and the like, so the top top end model would cost about £4000. Surprisingly people like the new bass and even at a high cost they sell well. As the business is doing well Alan can pay himself about £30,000- of which he saves a lot and it goes towards saving for his children's uni, he can pay Alan £23,000 and takes on Dave part time who costs about £10,000 a year. The bass costs £3200, Alan can care for his family and has done well at doing what he loves, Tom develops and makes enough to care for himself, he is saving up to one day launch his own business. Dave is young but learning, it's better than the dole. He works weekends in the Co-op to makes ends meet. The Pickup suppliers are happy, the hardware suppliers are happy The customer is happy... @Jimmyp28, exactly what is unethical about this scenario? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmettC Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I don't think anyone will persuade the OP that he is wrong, I would like to know what he does for a living though, just to see how is salary is more "ethical" than a skilled craftsman who's work is in demand. I love my Chris Larkin acoustic, and it is definitely 4 times better than the Takamine I had before it, I know Chris really well and he is definitely not a rich man, I actually think he should charge more for what he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 [quote name='EmmettC' timestamp='1327610536' post='1514282'] I don't think anyone will persuade the OP that he is wrong, [/quote] . . . . I'd just like the OP to describe how he believes the price of basses should be determined. Moaning about something you don't like is easy, suggesting a workable alternative is where the real intelligence lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanbean502 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) I just don't get this thread at all. I don't want a bass that is massed produced, i want something different and that of course will always come at a price but that is my prerogative Generally if I want something I buy it and that goes for anything not just basses. If I can't afford it i will wait work hard save a little and then buy it. There are many things that could be considered overpriced like Petrol and food, they are things that really do matter. This is Bulls**t Edited January 26, 2012 by deanbean502 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327593424' post='1513935'] Thank you Fan boys I truly am a changed man. [/quote] So those pics of the £1000 Wal-alike, then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lettsguitars Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 OP needs try and make a fewbasses i reckon, chop a couple of fingers off and trash a few grands worth of timber before he can truly know the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327593424' post='1513935']Thank god I have realised the error of my ways.[/quote] Quite frankly, your argument was idiotic from the outset. You postulated a proposition - luthier built basses are overpriced and therefore unethical - which would be difficult to argue at the best of times, as seeing any correlation between price and ethics in the real world is far from obvious; but, you postulated without offering any facts or figures to underpin your proposition. I think, and I'm sure the majority here would agree, you should go away, do your research, analyse the business model and the ethics of building basses, and then come back and present some reasoned and supported points for some proper debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosebass Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327450310' post='1511631'] Most people will hate this and yes am opening up a massive can of worms but I feel like I have to do some thing about what I personally believe to be the capitalistic and elitist. motivation behind some of the big names in the bass world these days, and yes this is one of them rants errrm I mean open discussions for intellectual debate. So this is my problem, companies like Fodera, Wal and kevin smith and to be honest any other maker who care to charge a ridiculous amount of money for there product, claiming that the price is justified. [/quote] Well Jimmyp28 it would certainly appear you have, and as a builder of basses with many happy customers I felt I must add my comments to the debate. I think the bass makers you cited are a bad example of what you term 'capitalist and eliteist' Why ? well especially in the case of Vinny Fodera whose basses reflect the amount of time that goes into making them. As he states on the Fodera website [quote][font=arial]We hope that you will visit here often as this section of our website will become, over time, a family album of sorts. Since no two Foderas ever turn out exactly the same way and we live with them for the many months it takes us to build each one, we wanted a place to preserve our family history and share it with you.[/font][/quote] If his basses are for a certain customer and they are happy with the prices then I see no problem. Also what is not costed into mass produced basses is the relationship between the buyer and the maker, My own record on a £500,00 custom bass was 50 emails from a customer regarding details of the build. This all takes time and in high end instruments is factored into the cost. Speak to any bass maker and they will tell you they are not in it for the money but for the pleasure of making instruments for people. Yes some are 'well off' but they have achieved that through graft and skill. If they had been an accountant or a lawyer they would be 10x better off..... I feel it is a priviledge that people entrust their money in me to build them a bass. I do have a different ethos in that my basses are not high end but are tailored to what a customer wants (or entrusts me to create for them) and are inexpensive. But like a Fodera they reflect the amount of time I put into them and I come out with an hourly rate around the minimum wage. The arguments surrounding other aspects of bass manufacture such as wood supply, far east labour rates and the enviromental problems from factories are manifold and way too complex for a simple answer here. But I would suggest talking to a few bass makers and if you see thier workshops and balance sheets you will see that they are not on any capitalist bandwagon. I would add that I and many others on the forum have played some high end 'boutique' basses and not been impressed, whatever the price. Conversley their are some great basses irrespective of price, its just a case of each to their own, there are no rights or wrongs. Edited January 27, 2012 by Prosebass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinman Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327593424' post='1513935'] yes of course some one trying to voice there opinion in manner of open debate on a website that is dedicate to that very ethos is truly ridiculous, what was I doing and thinking. Good to know though there are so many open minded people who are out there willing to debate an issue like adults and not just jump to troll like behaviour on the internet. Thank god I have realised the error of my ways. Thank you Fan boys I truly am a changed man. [/quote] Firstly, I am not a fan boy either. Secondly, I don't see anything to debate. To me it's fairly simple - if you want something you buy it, if you don't want it, you don't. If you can't afford it, then save until you can. No debate to be had. Question - Do the prices of Foderas, Alembics etc directly affect your life? If they don't, why are you whinging about it? What does it matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) Is this troll-inspired thread really still going on? Jimmy the SWP Fan-boy was clearly just seeing how far he could push a piece of arrogant tripe before he got flamed. Well, now he knows, and we know. Move on people, nothing to see here. Edited January 27, 2012 by Happy Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1327598890' post='1514047'] A story: A printer had a large and old printing press on which the business depended. You know the production line things the size of buildings. One day the press broke down, and try as they could they couldn't work out where it had broken down. In desperation they phoned up the previous manager of the print shop, he had worked there years, risen to the top and then retired when the company was bought out. They convinced him to work for them and he came in, walked around the machine for 15 minutes as they tried to get it going. Every so often he would lean up and listen to it. After a while he pulled a bit of chalk out of his pocket and marked an X on the side of the machine. "thats where the problem is" and sure enough when they opened it up there they found the problem. Well a few days later the old man bills them for his work for $5000. The manager was amazed at the cost and wrote back asking for an itemised bill so he could understand the cost better. The next day he got the itemised bill: One small chalk cross $1, knowing exactly where to put the chalk cross $4999 [/quote] Genius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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