Doctor J Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 It's worth thinking about the kind of instrument you end up with when socialists are at the wheel too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylkinut Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Doctor J' timestamp='1327483112' post='1511861'] It's worth thinking about the kind of instrument you end up with when socialists are at the wheel too [/quote] That has fried my mind. Burn it or burn my eyes, I've stopped caring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327450310' post='1511631'] Most people will hate this and yes am opening up a massive can of worms but I feel like I have to do some thing about what I personally believe to be the capitalistic and elitist. motivation behind some of the big names in the bass world these days, and yes this is one of them rants errrm I mean open discussions for intellectual debate. So this is my problem, companies like Fodera, Wal and kevin smith and to be honest any other maker who care to charge a ridiculous amount of money for there product, claiming that the price is justified. Its just flat out wrong, and there should be some form of ethical responsibility on there behalf . Am not disagreeing with the fact that these instruments are not brilliant in there own way (glad I got that disclaimer out of the way :-) ) But its just the fact that they charge an extraordinary amount of money for some thing which really is not justified in any other way other than the fact you are buying in to a brand. Tiffany do it all the time with silver, which I know cost nothing compared to the mark up that they make, these “high end” bass luthiers are no different. the whole problem I have with this is that once you start charging that much you are starting to make musical instruments an elites item, that is a commodity for the better off when in reality it would help every one if a higher calibre of instrument was available to every one and in turn that would help every one become better players. And I know of the saying “people will pay what that think that it worth” and it is a fair point to some degree, but this is my problem as well with that ethos. A, some one could possibly pay to little for an instrument that is worthy of a higher price. B. Some one could pay to much for an instrument that is not worthy of said price tag I think the point of this rant is that I want to open the floor to every one to actually speak about this and not be accused of “trolling” to put together there thoughts in a concise manner which can lead to a mutual understanding of people on every side. I know which side I stand on but I would love to hear what other people think that could lead me to understand why and how this has happened in the bass world. [/quote] Where is this actually coming from? Do you aspire to own one of these basses but can't afford it and are angry about it? If you don't wish to own one of these basses then what do you care what they cost? I have no desire to own a Ferrari, so I really couldn't give a toss how much they are, it's completely irrelevant. Me == confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Ethical? Each ply represents one of the orphans killed cutting down the trees by hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenochrome Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Don't agree. If there were NO basses that the average working class Joe [like me] could afford, then I'd have some sympathy. As it is, you can get a new bass, good enough for pro gigs, for ~£200. These high end basses will never be affordable for the likes of me but that's no problem - some of the tech will trickle down to the likes of me, eg the great preamp and pups in my cheapo Peavey bass are the same as on the mega expensive models Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throwoff Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1327459063' post='1511719'] Yes... but the amount of tropical woods used by independent specialist luthiers for bass guitars is nothing compared to that imported by the USA (for example) for furniture and other purposes. [/quote] And by the same logic one who murders one man has commited a lesser offence in the once regard than someone who killed 100. Quantity should not come into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylkinut Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Doctor J' timestamp='1327487751' post='1511990'] Ethical? Each ply represents one of the orphans killed cutting down the trees by hand. [/quote] Such is the price of art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327450310' post='1511631'] Most people will hate this and yes am opening up a massive can of worms but I feel like I have to do some thing about what I personally believe to be the capitalistic and elitist. motivation behind some of the big names in the bass world these days, and yes this is one of them rants errrm I mean open discussions for intellectual debate. So this is my problem, companies like Fodera, Wal and kevin smith and to be honest any other maker who care to charge a ridiculous amount of money for there product, claiming that the price is justified. Its just flat out wrong, and there should be some form of ethical responsibility on there behalf . .............[/quote] Good for you... you have sussed it. But you've come to the wrong place to vent your spleen. Most of the peeps willing to argue with you (or get picky about your choice of words - I presume you sorta meant moral business ethics) are already balls-deep in the system you are trying to topple. It is hardwired into the Matrix (for now). We are enticed into believing that the quick path to perfection lies in s[s]pending[/s] investing the most amount of money possible on something.... (and then telling everyone about it) Do yourself a favour and take your observation to a guitar forum and tell them about the crazy bass players paying stoopid money for not much more in return... oh ... hang on they do the same thing ... well take it to ... a microphone forum then .... ah crap, the same ... a hi-fi forum ... doh! .... a car forum .... gnnnh! ... knitting machine forums .... ahhhh! ... juggling? ... oh no, The Great Juglendo (bedroom juggler extraordinaire) only uses a top end brand of clubs which are designed in a wind-tunnel in Switzerland then laser forged in space by the son of world renowned juggling club guru Karl Von Schwanschucker. True, buying Brand X costing 5 times more than Brand Y (which in turn has unarguable benefits over cheapo Brand Z) may not tangibly give you that much more... but Big Brother encourages his underlings to be less selective in this regard and instead to derive extra satisfaction (perhaps a even little schadenfreude) by purchasing something that has your perfectly acceptable example of the genre beat hands down... a more expensive label. *bing* 1up - health restored You are ready for the next level, Grasshopper. Edited January 25, 2012 by Ou7shined Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
largo Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 To the original poster, how many hours do you think realistically a luthier takes to build a bass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Toasted' timestamp='1327482708' post='1511850'] ^ lol. [/quote] ^ lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmyp28 Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Lots of post here but i expected that really lol. reading all the post though one thing strikes me is that so far there has not been one reasoned point for the prices of these instrument other than capital gain or "supply and demand". Is that really good enough? Just because one person say its worth 5000 we except it? I personally believe there is more to instrument making than that. Is it not fair to say that they are making tools capable of explaining so many emotion in the hands of a skilled or even unskilled musicians and is not fair to say that every one should have that option? I know we live in a very capitalistic society but surly there is a happy medium. Some way in which these very talented skilled artisans can get this to the general populus with out the need for for such high profit margins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327492767' post='1512123'] I know we live in a very capitalistic society but surly there is a happy medium. Some way in which these very talented skilled artisans can get this to the general populus with out the need for for such high profit margins? [/quote]How do you know what kind of profit margins they're running? Could you get some kind of documentation to show exactly how much Wal, Fodera and Ken Smith make on each bass, or are you just speculating that even though the RRP is high that the cost of manufacture is substantially lower? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmyp28 Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Doctor J' timestamp='1327493290' post='1512139'] How do you know what kind of profit margins they're running? Could you get some kind of documentation to show exactly how much Wal, Fodera and Ken Smith make on each bass, or are you just speculating that even though the RRP is high that the cost of manufacture is substantially lower? [/quote] I know lutihers who are very skilled but are not "on the map" so to speak and its funny how they can buy in top quality wood and make me a copy of a Wal, Fodera or any other bass and charge me £1000 and still make a good profit. So if he can charge that and live and yes they do have big over heads as well, why are these "bigger" companies charging so much. But yes your are right maybe some transparency from these people would help clear this up, but i don't see that happing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Your Wal guy copied their filter preamp and 8 coil pickups for a grand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327492767' post='1512123'] I know we live in a very capitalistic society but surly there is a happy medium. Some way in which these very talented skilled artisans can get this to the general populus with out the need for for such high profit margins? [/quote] You didn't answer any of my questions. You don't have to of course, after all we do live in a relatively free world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327493717' post='1512148'] I know lutihers who are very skilled but are not "on the map" so to speak and its funny how they can buy in top quality wood and make me a copy of a Wal, Fodera or any other bass and charge me £1000 and still make a good profit. .....[/quote] Trust me, there's not much profit there taking the man's time into account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Jimmyp28, your rant comes across as a severe case of sour grapes. You appear want an expensive bass but you are seemingly not prepared to save/work hard/make the appropriate lifestyle choices required to be able to afford one. Also if you think that at the hand-crafted instrument level one luthier's work is substitutable for another's then you haven't really grasped the concept of custom/boutique basses fully and are not really ready for one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I noticed you never answered my question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB1 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Good for you... you have sussed it. But you've come to the wrong place to vent your spleen. Most of the peeps willing to argue with you (or get picky about your choice of words - I presume you sorta meant moral business ethics) are already balls-deep in the system you are trying to topple. It is hardwired into the Matrix (for now). We are enticed into believing that the quick path to perfection lies in s[s]pending[/s] investing the most amount of money possible on something.... (and then telling everyone about it) Do yourself a favour and take your observation to a guitar forum and tell them about the crazy bass players paying stoopid money for not much more in return... oh ... hang on they do the same thing ... well take it to ... a microphone forum then .... ah crap, the same ... a hi-fi forum ... doh! .... a car forum .... gnnnh! ... knitting machine forums .... ahhhh! ... juggling? ... oh no, The Great Juglendo (bedroom juggler extraordinaire) only uses a top end brand of clubs which are designed in a wind-tunnel in Switzerland then laser forged in space by the son of world renowned juggling club guru Karl Von Schwanschucker. True, buying Brand X costing 5 times more than Brand Y (which in turn has unarguable benefits over cheapo Brand Z) may not tangibly give you that much more... but Big Brother encourages his underlings to be less selective in this regard and instead to derive extra satisfaction (perhaps a even little schadenfreude) by purchasing something that has your perfectly acceptable example of the genre beat hands down... a more expensive label. *bing* 1up - health restored You are ready for the next level, Grasshopper. MB1. Thats all well and good,but will it shift these stubborn understains? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmyp28 Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1327494660' post='1512186'] Jimmyp28, your rant comes across as a severe case of sour grapes. You appear want an expensive bass but you are seemingly not prepared to save/work hard/make the appropriate lifestyle choices required to be able to afford one. Also if you think that at the hand-crafted instrument level one luthier's work is substitutable for another's then you haven't really grasped the concept of custom/boutique basses fully and are not really ready for one. [/quote] that is not the case and i did not mean it to come across that way at all. This has nothing to do with me owning said brand this has every thing to do with how I see these brands behaving and i just do not feel it is right though and this is a place to voice thoughts. I have owned a few custom and expensive instruments and am not disagreeing with the fact that they do cost time and money. As i said its with the makers who charge well over so over in-fact that I can come to no reasonable conclusion to why they cost that much, and thats why i wanted to talk about this subject. And that is the point if one level of luthiers work is comparable to another and is that of the same quality (not better) then why should a brand get to charge so much more? Are you trying to tell me that is reasonable and fair. when there is no other reason then a name. [quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1327494066' post='1512164'] Trust me, there's not much profit there taking the man's time into account. [/quote] but that depends on what you call a reasonable profit margin really Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Or the relative cots of research and development, particularly when borne bringing a unique concept to market, and the expense of having bespoke components and fitments manufactured to exacting specifications, say, with Alembic designing and building all its own pickups and electronics, or Atlansia all its own hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmyp28 Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1327494958' post='1512197'] I noticed you never answered my question [/quote] If it was at the expensive of over charging people then no I would not, thats how i see this subject. Unless it was x11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='MB1' timestamp='1327495410' post='1512215']MB1. Thats all well and good,but will it shift these stubborn understains? [/quote] Yes.. and 8 out 10 cats prefer it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasted Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327492767' post='1512123']such high profit margins?[/quote] On what basis can you say that luthiers are making high profit margins? You have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasted Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327493717' post='1512148']I know morally bankrupt luthiers who are very skilled and morally bankrupt but are not "on the map" so to speak and its funny how they can buy in top quality wood and make me a morally bankrupt copy of a Wal, Fodera or any other bass and charge me £1000 and still make a morally bankrupt good profit.[/quote] Fixed it for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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