funkypenguin Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Ok, take fodera. They're based in New York city, their rent as a result of this will be astronomical, their overhead similarly so. They buy the best materials they can, some of which are nearly impossible to obtain (they only use CITES certified Brazilian rosewood. That's ethical to me) which again costs a huge amount of money. they use a high quality preamp, which costs a lot to manufacture. Then they hand build the instruments themselves. On top of this, they have to be able to live, pay their bills etc., again which living in NY will no doubt be through the roof......that's why they cost so much, not because they are being unethical..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmyp28 Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Toasted' timestamp='1327497000' post='1512265'] On what basis can you say that luthiers are making high profit margins? You have no idea. [/quote] Not all luthiers am saying the big brands as explained earlier. Fodera don't make high profit margins?........really? they charge $500 for a hand made pick guard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327495890' post='1512227'] but that depends on what you call a reasonable profit margin really [/quote] And you've already said you don't have a clue what the individual profit margin is, which is why your crusade is so baffling. Get some facts first, then this might make a bit more sense. I suspect Mr. Kipling of keeping thebest cakes for himself, but I can't prove it, so I let it lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmyp28 Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='funkypenguin' timestamp='1327497695' post='1512287'] Ok, take fodera. They're based in New York city, their rent as a result of this will be astronomical, their overhead similarly so. They buy the best materials they can, some of which are nearly impossible to obtain (they only use CITES certified Brazilian rosewood. That's ethical to me) which again costs a huge amount of money. they use a high quality preamp, which costs a lot to manufacture. Then they hand build the instruments themselves. On top of this, they have to be able to live, pay their bills etc., again which living in NY will no doubt be through the roof......that's why they cost so much, not because they are being unethical..... [/quote] yeah thats a good rationalisation but really? there over heads are so high they have to charge people to come down and choose the woods for there bass? They do use a very high quailty pre amp and I love the sound of Foderas I really do but how much do you really think it costs to make a Ying Yang standard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil-osopher10 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Without reading the whole thing I would like to add that a friend studied music in London and his uni was offering a bursary for up to £30K for their instruments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkypenguin Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327498339' post='1512308'] yeah thats a good rationalisation but really? there over heads are so high they have to charge people to come down and choose the woods for there bass? They do use a very high quailty pre amp and I love the sound of Foderas I really do but how much do you really think it costs to make a Ying Yang standard? [/quote] Again, how much do you think they're paying for rent, materials and overhead?? Edited January 25, 2012 by funkypenguin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Sorry JIm, must 'unfollow' now, my luthier's on the phone - my custom bass is ready. You don't want to know how much [i]that's[/i] costing me!! Oh and I'm bored, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmyp28 Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1327498619' post='1512321'] Sorry JIm, must 'unfollow' now, my luthier's on the phone - my custom bass is ready. You don't want to know how much [i]that's[/i] costing me!! Oh and I'm bored, as well. [/quote] Congrats on the new bass. Am willing to bet its amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylkinut Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I still don't get why it matters what these companies charge - that's the price the company sets, people pay it, end of. I don't see luthiers rolling around in Bentleys thanks to the massive profits you believe they make. There's nothing unethical about a company pricing a product highly just because you think it should be lower. If I as a consumer could set prices, I'd have bought my Precision with some Monopoly money and a packet of biscuits. However, that would have made me a prize bellend, because the chaps who made it wouldn't have food to eat (except for the biscuits). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1327498619' post='1512321'] Sorry JIm, must 'unfollow' now, my luthier's on the phone - my custom bass is ready. You don't want to know how much [i]that's[/i] costing me!! Oh and I'm bored, as well. [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Mylkinut' timestamp='1327499408' post='1512343'] If I as a consumer could set prices, I'd have bought my Precision with some Monopoly money and a packet of biscuits. However, that would have made me a prize bellend, because the chaps who made it wouldn't have food to eat (except for the biscuits). [/quote] Were they Tunnocks? I like those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmyp28 Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1327499661' post='1512349'] [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylkinut Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='4000' timestamp='1327499775' post='1512353'] Were they Tunnocks? I like those. [/quote] Nah, Asda Rich Teas. If I'm setting my own prices I like to keep it cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1327499661' post='1512349'] [/quote] As soon as it arrives from The Bass Doc you can have all the pics you can possibly handle and more, mate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmyp28 Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Mylkinut' timestamp='1327499408' post='1512343'] I still don't get why it matters what these companies charge - that's the price the company sets, people pay it, end of. I don't see luthiers rolling around in Bentleys thanks to the massive profits you believe they make. There's nothing unethical about a company pricing a product highly just because you think it should be lower. If I as a consumer could set prices, I'd have bought my Precision with some Monopoly money and a packet of biscuits. However, that would have made me a prize bellend, because the chaps who made it wouldn't have food to eat (except for the biscuits). [/quote] If thats how you see it then thats cool that was my point, I do not see it as ok and was checking with the community to see if people felt the same way as I do. We all have different beliefs and I respect that. Still though I have not heard one reason for why these high end basses cost a lot more and we are not talking just a few weeks of saving. I know people have a problem with how I feel about this (look at the last few pages ha ha) but the point was to hear how and why these prices can be justified and am still thinking that they cant. Every post has said about there over heads are high or they are that the skill these luthiers have warrant this price, or have questioned my beliefs or ideas, but still no reason to explain to some degree rationally why there basses cost so much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327495890' post='1512227'] And that is the point if one level of luthiers work is comparable to another and is that of the same quality (not better) then why should a brand get to charge so much more? Are you trying to tell me that is reasonable and fair. when there is no other reason then a name. [/quote] If you really believe that simply the quality of the luthiers work is what is what is important and not all the other things like the design, the R&D, the construction techniques, then you have completely missed the point of custom instruments. And if you think that your luthier friend can make you a bass that you'll be as happy with for £1k then go for it! Otherwise we might think that what you you really have is brand envy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327500530' post='1512382'] Still though I have not heard one reason for why these high end basses cost a lot more and we are not talking just a few weeks of saving. I know people have a problem with how I feel about this (look at the last few pages ha ha) but the point was to hear how and why these prices can be justified and am still [b]thinking[/b] that they cant. Every post has said about there over heads are high or they are that the skill these luthiers have warrant this price, or have questioned my beliefs or ideas, but still no reason to explain to some degree rationally why there basses cost so much more. [/quote] You see, nobody can address this for you because you [b]think[/b] they're wildly overpriced, but don't have a clue what they actually cost to make. Until you find out what they cost, you have no idea what the retail price should be and, therefore, are making a claim which is entirely groundless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasted Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327498089' post='1512297']Not all luthiers am saying the big brands as explained earlier. Fodera don't make high profit margins?........really? they charge $500 for a hand made pick guard.[/quote] Ridiculous. You obviously miss the point so totally there's no point talking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Is it really ethical for your luthier friend to copy the design of one of these name luthiers and offer a knock-down priced version? Why not go the whole hog and see what Trade Tang can provide? As has been said here already, luthiers (even the highest paid ones) are way, way down the pecking order of un-ethical business people. I really doubt that even Fodera with their $500 scratchplate are making huge percentages as their overall net profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylkinut Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327500530' post='1512382'] If thats how you see it then thats cool that was my point, I do not see it as ok and was checking with the community to see if people felt the same way as I do. We all have different beliefs and I respect that. Still though I have not heard one reason for why these high end basses cost a lot more and we are not talking just a few weeks of saving. I know people have a problem with how I feel about this (look at the last few pages ha ha) but the point was to hear how and why these prices can be justified and am still thinking that they cant. Every post has said about there over heads are high or they are that the skill these luthiers have warrant this price, or have questioned my beliefs or ideas, but still no reason to explain to some degree rationally why there basses cost so much more. [/quote] That's because there [i]isn't[/i] a rational reason behind it. I believe Machinehead said you should look up Veblen Goods right at the start of this thread, which was pretty much the perfect response. If you won't take overheads or skill or materials as a good reason (all of which I do), all you're left with is that they can charge what they charge because [i]people will pay it[/i]. Maybe they could make the same bass for 10% less, but why should they charge that when people will pay the extra 10%? Rationality goes out the window when high prices are involved - you could have a Squier P Bass which in a gig setting makes almost all the same noises and costs nothing compared to a Fedora, but many feel that Fedora is just worth the extra. It's not for you or me to say how much profit a luthier should make from his work. I suspect a skilled luthier would want a comfortable life just as much as the next man. I wouldn't expect them to live in student bedsits in a pious attempt to keep costs down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmyp28 Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1327500991' post='1512395'] Is it really ethical for your luthier friend to copy the design of one of these name luthiers and offer a knock-down priced version? Why not go the whole hog and see what Trade Tang can provide? As has been said here already, luthiers (even the highest paid ones) are way, way down the pecking order of un-ethical business people. I really doubt that even Fodera with their $500 scratchplate are making huge percentages as their overall net profit. [/quote] Him actually making a Wal was not the point at all. What was though was him making an instrument that has a very high price tag with high grade materials for a lot less. And yes luthiers are way down the pecking list you are right but does that mean you should not do or say any thing about it? Just because it further down list still means its on the list though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327501349' post='1512405'] And yes luthiers are way down the pecking list you are right but does that mean you should not do or say any thing about it? [/quote] [i][b]Trip trap, trip trap.[/b][/i] Don't feed the trolls, unless you're feeling like Billy Goat Gruff ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327501349' post='1512405'] Just because it further down list still means its on the list though. [/quote] Yes, but we all probably are as we drive, consume, earn etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasted Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1327500991' post='1512395'] I really doubt that even Fodera with their $500 scratchplate are making huge percentages as their overall net profit.[/quote] Just to really clear this up: You can't get the $500 [b]upgrade[/b] scratch plate without the $10,000 bass it comes attached to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmyp28 Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Toasted' timestamp='1327502763' post='1512444'] Just to really clear this up: You can't get the $500 [b]upgrade[/b] scratch plate without the $10,000 bass it comes attached to. [/quote] and a UPGRADE scratch plate costing $500 is not the issue at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.gif.9ad672bb8b84505709f76b39c8c256ec.gif)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.