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4000

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4000 last won the day on October 30 2019

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Total Watts

  1. Sacrilege. My favourite guitar in the hands of my least favourite guitarist. 😂
  2. Once again Hellzero, apologies for the derailment - which I thought had previously righted itself - hopefully this can now be an end to it. I know I’ve definitely had enough of it.
  3. It’s a fair point though. Post-Syd Floyd for instance isn’t that much like Syd-era Floyd. Rather than gaining fans, they could have lost them all and disappeared forever. The fact that the reverse is true I’m sure was more by accident than design. Genesis could be argued as another example, PG and post-PG. They lost some fans, retained some fans, gained some fans, but they could just have died a death. And when gigging at pub/club level, unless you have a fan base that follows you round or are familiar with what you do, every gig is a completely clean slate in terms of audience reaction/expectation and each individual in the audience is an Individual clean slate. How can you possibly predict how each individual in a completely new audience is going to react to what you do (this obviously applies to their reaction to recordings too)? The more I’ve thought about this discussion - and I’ve thought about it a lot over the last few days - the more it has disturbed me. I started drawing & painting for my own enjoyment pretty much as soon as I could hold a pencil/pen/brush and was always encouraged to do so. As soon as I was able I wrote stories for my own enjoyment, created characters and comic strips for my own enjoyment. Pre-teen and pre-superhero/fantasy action figures, I made models first out of plasticine and later all sorts of materials, so I could play with them and act out stories and adventures, for my own enjoyment. My friends did the same (my best friend eventually went on to work for Cosgrove Hall and Tim Burton). It was the most natural thing in the world for me (and them) and I never thought twice about it, just assumed anyone else who was so inclined would do the same. When I got into music and subsequently started playing I immediately started writing my own songs as it was simply a continuation of my natural mindset - although by this time I had like-minded friends who were also writing for their own enjoyment. We started a band because we liked making music together, no other reason. Making music was enjoyable and exciting. At the same time I went to foundation course and then Uni studying fine art. Everyone there in my experience was there because they felt the urge to create, nothing more. They just wanted to further their art, learn more about it, perfect it. The odd one was thinking consciously about a career in art but most weren’t. Hardly any of them ever thought about an audience, it just wasn’t a consideration. So the majority of people I’ve ever mixed with have created art of some sort primarily for their own enjoyment. I’ve obviously been aware that there are people who do it for other reasons but that has never concerned me - that’s their choice and they’re perfectly entitled to do it for any reason they see fit and to find enjoyment in it any way they can - and I’ll admit I haven’t had much contact with people who do it for other reasons. What has terrified me about this discussion is that there have been comments that have suggested that creating something primarily for your own enjoyment is wrong, selfish, pretentious, inconsiderate, dismissive, something to be ridiculed. That has absolutely shocked me to the core. Especially coming from musicians, as I’d always assumed the majority of musicians were likewise creative-minded (and open-minded) people. At this stage, creating my own music, for my own reasons, is the only thing I have left in life. I spent most of 2019 considering whether or not to take my own life, and luckily (?) made it through, although it remains a daily battle. However if anyone tried to take away my final reason for living, that is what I would do. The great irony of course is that those who perceive they’re being looked down on by ‘selfish, pretentious creative types’ and object to that are guilty of exactly the same thing in reverse.
  4. I get that. Personally I don’t think I’ve ever painted anything in the hope someone else would like it, unless it’s been a commission. I also gave up on painting commissions for similar reasons. They’re absolutely no fun whatsoever and most of the time pay abysmally compared to the amount of work that is put in.
  5. Thank you for the clarification, it’s much appreciated. As you’re no doubt now aware, even if you weren’t before, my point all along was that artists shouldn’t “bow to the whim of the listener”. Of course an artist may consider how their music will be received, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they should alter their music to accommodate it IMO, especially given different individuals may receive it differently and have different opinions about it. They’re two completely separate - although arguably overlapping - issues IMO. One of my favourite pieces of music is Shine On You Crazy Diamond, which to me is near - but not quite - perfect. Personally, I think Nick nods off on his stool half way through and I’m not overly keen on Roger’s bass sound, even in context. Now I’m sure the boys were well aware there would be an audience for Wish You Were Here. 😉 However I’m sure if I’d contacted Roger and pointed out the issues I’ve mentioned I would be told to go forth and multiply, and I would expect nothing less.😂 What’s more, someone else may love Nick’s sagging feel or Roger’s bass sound. So who is right? I’d say Pink Floyd are. 😉
  6. No, but your points were relating to points that I’ve been involved in discussing, hence why I’m continuing to comment. Although I am beginning to wonder why. 🙄 I don’t agree with your second point. Most of the painters and sculptors I’ve known - and I’ve known a lot - really aren’t concerned with what an audience thinks and most don’t even show their work. That doesn’t mean they don’t create the work though. 😉 Speaking personally, it’s one of the reasons I abandoned illustration, because having to fit a brief ruined my enjoyment of it. Now, can we go back to Roger Whittaker please? That was a lot more fun.
  7. They probably would, but considering how their art will be consumed and appreciated by an audience doesn’t necessarily mean they would make artistic decisions according to their audience’s preferences. Why on Earth would someone who really didn’t care about an audience not record their music? Would a painter who doesn’t care about an audience not bother actually putting paint to canvas, or a writer who doesn’t care about an audience not bother writing anything down? It’s quite possible to do something simply for your own enjoyment, although based this thread that seems to be anathema to some. 🙄
  8. Having an audience and allowing them to dictate your creative decisions are two completely different things, and all my comments have revolved around the latter, which you sadly appear to be struggling to grasp - unless of course you’re being deliberately obtuse. Either way Stub, I’m disappointed. ☹️
  9. I don’t agree that it was dismissive. Why is stating that I don’t believe an artist should make artistic decisions based on an audiences preferences dismissive? Would you choose a partner based on your own opinion or the opinions of a bunch of people who don’t even know you? Same principle applies. How could you possibly create something that is satisfactory to you based on a bunch of contrasting opinions anyway? If you think that that is somehow disrespectful to an audience - which you seem to - please explain why. I’m sure if you asked Kate Bush, Joni Mitchell, Roger Waters, Neil Young - whoever - whether an audience should dictate what they create or how they create it they would say absolutely not. That doesn’t mean they don’t respect or appreciate their audience. Why would it?
  10. I’m not quite sure how suggesting I’m a bit up myself as a response to my saying that an audience shouldn’t dictate your artistic decisions is “responding in a similar tone”, but whatever. 😂😂😂
  11. The great irony is that people seem to generally like it. 😁 But - material aside, which always seems to go down pretty well - that could be down to the other members of the band who are likely more entertaining and certainly more audience-focussed than I am. 😉
  12. I have at no point said that it’s better or more worthy, just that it’s the reason why I do it (so maybe just better for me). Not that I should really have to justify the reasons why I make music, FWIW. For me, the best part of music most definitely is not the reason you’ve given. It’s the emotional affect it has on me, always has been, whether listening, writing or playing. And what there is of that is simply gained by playing the music; I don’t need an audience. I’m not a very social person really, am quite happy doing my own thing, on my own, or with a band. And as it’s fulfilling the creative urge that’s the important thing to me it does matter whether aim playing originals or covers. I’m sure you’re right about some cover bands, but sadly that’s not been my experience (which shouldn’t reflect on anyone on here who plays covers). The majority of the cover bands I’ve ever seen - mainly in my area - have played at best passable (and at worst not), often half-hearted versions of the usual songs. As I say, this may be simply a local thing, or maybe I’ve just been unlucky. Having said that, I don’t actively seek out cover bands, never have. It’s just not interesting to me (and these days I find typical pub band volume unbearable anyway), which again is no reflection on people who want to do it. As evidenced by this thread, we all have different motivations.
  13. Obviously I’d prefer that an audience likes it, I’m not that weird. 😂 But it’s really not much of a blow if they don’t. I don’t gauge what I’m doing by someone else’s opinion of it; that way madness lies, in any walk of life. Other band members over the years have sometimes got down if they don’t get a responsive audience but it’s never really concerned me. Audiences - people generally - are so arbitrary anyway. I’ve seen people rave about stuff I think is awful and be disparaging about stuff I think is incredible. In the end, it’s down to you. But yes, the main point is that it will definitely not influence the creative process in any way, shape or form.
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