skej21 Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) Anyone who thinks that "keep it simple" = boring is clearly just a poor, egotistical and immature musician. Personally, I think one of the biggest challenges any musician faces is the point in their playing when they have to choose whether to hold back, be functional, subtle and sensitive or let their ego run wild (bearing in mind the great solo players were all great functional players first!). One route leads to gigs, the other leads you to a lifetime of lonely bedroom playing... we all know which is which Edited January 22, 2011 by skej21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Exactly A one of my mates introduced me to a guy down the pub, saying I was a good bassist, and this guy immediately said he could take me in a "bass-off", as he was the best bassist around. I`m not interested in saying I`m the best, mainly cos I`m not, and won`t ever be, but did feel the need to enquire: How many bands had he played in - none How many drummers had stated that they found it easy to play and lock in with his bass-playing - none Could he, without any other instruments playing, play along to one of his favourite songs in his head, and at the same time record it, 5 seperate times, and each time the total recorded time would be within 1 or 2 seconds of each other - no In the words of Yoda "His bass-off, myself, did not threaten, mmm". I didn`t state whether I could do all/any of the above, felt no need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Lozz196' post='1098602' date='Jan 22 2011, 01:05 PM']Exactly A one of my mates introduced me to a guy down the pub, saying I was a good bassist, and this guy immediately said he could take me in a "bass-off", as he was the best bassist around. I`m not interested in saying I`m the best, mainly cos I`m not, and won`t ever be, but did feel the need to enquire: How many bands had he played in - none How many drummers had stated that they found it easy to play and lock in with his bass-playing - none Could he, without any other instruments playing, play along to one of his favourite songs in his head, and at the same time record it, 5 seperate times, and each time the total recorded time would be within 1 or 2 seconds of each other - no In the words of Yoda "His bass-off, myself, did not threaten, mmm". I didn`t state whether I could do all/any of the above, felt no need.[/quote] *Stands up and salutes/applauds Lozz196* However, I don't think I would have gotten half the gigs and work if there hadn't been one of these arrogant bedroom players making life hell, overplaying and messing stuff up in the band/pit before I got there. They do a great job of making functional, sensitive and "simple" bass players look a lot more professional and employable by setting such a bad example to start with lol. Edited January 22, 2011 by skej21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) I think most songwriters (if they're not bassplayers themselves) start off with a new song imagining it with a pretty simple bassline. If the bassplayer is not too chuffed with that, then it's up him/her to come up with a really good alternative idea for the bass part which will enhance and improve it. Of course not everybody is a bass genius like, for example, James Jamerson who could make a very busy bassline an integral part of a song. I wonder if anybody ever said to James 'Hey James, just keep it simple mate....' His amazing basslines were at the heart of many Motown hits which, probably, when originally written were envisioned with much simpler bass parts. A wee example of isolated bassline from 'What's Going On ' [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqtELR5GyfI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqtELR5GyfI[/url] I wonder if James ever played a simple bassline? There must be one out there somewhere? Edited January 23, 2011 by gjones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='dlloyd' post='1097382' date='Jan 21 2011, 12:35 PM']Believe it or not, by the 1970s and Motown's move from Detroit to Los Angeles, he was considered too busy by a lot of producers and had difficulty getting any session work.[/quote] Too drunk more likely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassbloke Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='Lozz196' post='1098602' date='Jan 22 2011, 01:05 PM']Exactly A one of my mates introduced me to a guy down the pub, saying I was a good bassist, and this guy immediately said he could take me in a "bass-off", as he was the best bassist around. I`m not interested in saying I`m the best, mainly cos I`m not, and won`t ever be, but did feel the need to enquire: How many bands had he played in - none How many drummers had stated that they found it easy to play and lock in with his bass-playing - none Could he, without any other instruments playing, play along to one of his favourite songs in his head, and at the same time record it, 5 seperate times, and each time the total recorded time would be within 1 or 2 seconds of each other - no In the words of Yoda "His bass-off, myself, did not threaten, mmm". I didn`t state whether I could do all/any of the above, felt no need.[/quote] It's such a preposterous sequence of events that you could be forgiven for making it up, were it not for the fact that I've had countless similar conversations over the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='BurritoBass' post='1097941' date='Jan 21 2011, 06:51 PM']Keep it simple means "keep it simple". It doesn't mean "Only play root notes" and it is not a mandate to be boring. I'm increasingly amazed by fantastic basslines which inspire me to work them out... resulting in me thinking "is that all he was doing?" D'oh![/quote] +1 This ace comment from BurritoBass & the keep it musical one earlier nail it for me! Play what the song needs & not what you can. Save the fret w*nks for home practice or to warm up yer fingers! cheers, Norm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuee Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [center][size=5][font="Century Gothic"]Listen and ye shall be heard.[/font][/size] [/center] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witterth Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='Stuee' post='1099387' date='Jan 23 2011, 10:25 AM'][center][size=5][font="Century Gothic"]Listen and ye shall be heard.[/font][/size] [/center][/quote] Amen. ( err...are we doing "Stonehenge tonight?") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='The Bass Doc' post='1097988' date='Jan 21 2011, 07:25 PM']I've said it in a previous thread - there's a lot of great stuff I don't play. [/quote] Me too. All that Victor Wooten stuff. I don't play [i]any[/i] of it. Which, in a bizarre and slightly ironic way, actually makes me a [i]better[/i] player than him. Of course, I [i]could[/i] play it* - but I don't. Self control, that's the secret. *Sadly, this bit is a lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreek Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Do you know I nearly started believing some of what was being said here then I went to the "Funk and Groove" thread - seems like somebody needs to tell all of these guys to "KISS"... Marcus..Stanley..Victor..Les Claypool...Mick Karn..TK Stevens..are you listening?? KISS, in my mind, will lead to nothing but mediocrity and bass being nothing more than a backing instrument.. God bless those who break the rules!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='TheGreek' post='1099724' date='Jan 23 2011, 03:20 PM']Do you know I nearly started believing some of what was being said here then I went to the "Funk and Groove" thread - seems like somebody needs to tell all of these guys to "KISS"... Marcus..Stanley..Victor..Les Claypool...Mick Karn..TK Stevens..are you listening?? KISS, in my mind, will lead to nothing but mediocrity and bass being nothing more than a backing instrument.. God bless those who break the rules!!![/quote] All of them people I would never normally listen to. One of them I never heard of. I'm so glad that I'm mediocre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='TheGreek' post='1099724' date='Jan 23 2011, 03:20 PM']Do you know I nearly started believing some of what was being said here then I went to the "Funk and Groove" thread - seems like somebody needs to tell all of these guys to "KISS"... Marcus..Stanley..Victor..Les Claypool...Mick Karn..TK Stevens..are you listening?? KISS, in my mind, will lead to nothing but mediocrity and bass being nothing more than a backing instrument.. God bless those who break the rules!!![/quote] 'Mediocrity' is a word so often used in place of 'preference'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niceguyhomer Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='TheGreek' post='1099724' date='Jan 23 2011, 03:20 PM']KISS, in my mind, will lead to nothing but mediocrity and bass being nothing more than a backing instrument..[/quote] Bass is a backing instrument in a band situation but of course if you like playing with yourself, by all means do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='TheGreek' post='1099724' date='Jan 23 2011, 03:20 PM']Do you know I nearly started believing some of what was being said here then I went to the "Funk and Groove" thread - seems like somebody needs to tell all of these guys to "KISS"... Marcus..Stanley..Victor..Les Claypool...Mick Karn..TK Stevens..are you listening?? KISS, in my mind, will lead to nothing but mediocrity and bass being nothing more than a backing instrument.. God bless those who break the rules!!![/quote] The thing with the guys you mention,is that although they all have great chops,they have all played their share of 'simple' basslines. Many of their bass parts are not always as complex as they may appear (Claypool in particular). In some styles the bass is still a backing instrument and requires simple lines,its part of the job.It doesn't always have to push boundaries. As far as mediocrity goes,there are a lot of mediocre players who think that they are pushing things and being creative(see the thread on Jaxsn),while there are great players who have the chops (like Will Lee) who can lay down a simple part all day with groove and conviction. Check out the thread about Larry Grahams line on 'Everyday People' as an example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='Doddy' post='1099741' date='Jan 23 2011, 03:38 PM']The thing with the guys you mention,is that although they all have great chops,they have all played their share of 'simple' basslines. Many of their bass parts are not always as complex as they may appear (Claypool in particular).[/quote] Once again the word 'context' is of vital importance. All of those artists have a huge back catalogue of material, played solo or as part of a band (playing their own material) or a band playing as a session player, at Music industry shows (where they are expected to demo gear and it goes without saying that they will be trying to show that gear in a good light... Some people like complex music. Not just the musicians playing it, but the audience themselves. Bass is not just a backing instrument. Bass is not just a solo instrument. Every player lies somewhere on the continuum between these two extremes, and at different times and in different contexts their position can and will vary. Which is as it should be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuee Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I think that just about wraps up the whole argument, Conan. Very succinctly and eloquently put, sir. Bravo! Can we lock this thread now please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='Stuee' post='1099771' date='Jan 23 2011, 04:11 PM']I think that just about wraps up the whole argument, Conan. Very succinctly and eloquently put, sir. Bravo![/quote] +1. Can't help wondering how many times that comment appears in Robert E Howard's tales? Not often, I imagine..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinynorman Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 In the league of busy rock players, the one that interests me is Jack Casady. I find listening to Airplane tracks exciting in the same way that watching a pack of formula one drivers hitting an oil slick is exciting. You know they individually have the skill to get through, but one twitch out of place and everyone's going to end up on the grass. No one in Airplane took responsibility for holding the band together, which typically is the job of the bass player. With more solid basslines, would Airplane have been a better band? They'd certainly have had an easier life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wylie Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1097406' date='Jan 21 2011, 07:54 AM']Keep it [i]musical[/i] Sometimes that means simple. Sometimes it doesn't. 'Being a bass player means getting off on making other people sound good' - Robert Hurst III (Branford and Wynton Marsalis). It takes what it takes. If the part screams sixteenth note unison lines, then nail it. It its minims, nail it. If its triplet 5's against 4, nail it. Play the music, not the instrument. The more I study music, the more the notes matter and the less important the instruments and players are. Serve the music not the id.[/quote] [size=3]This really is it for me, esp. the Hurst quote.[/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) Ask yourself what you can do for the song not what the song can do for me. Musicians sometimes forget that they are part of an ensemble and with each player playing his or her part. Look at any orchestral part and see how each instrument and section compliments each other never fighting for space, often the double bass part is just one or two notes a bar even though there are some great musicians no one ever complains about keeping it simple or underplaying. In fairness on some sessions I have done for guitarist singer songwriters they have little idea what a good bass player can add to the music and want plodding rout notes sometimes it work others the song need uplifting rhythm to stop the song becoming even more insipid. But at the end of the day it’s about the music Edited January 23, 2011 by ironside1966 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 KISS is all very well with great music, and music where each musician respects the other, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse by mediocre guitardists (or similar) who just want a karaoke-style backing band for their own self-indulgent widdlings, with no real musical input from the other band members. I remember turning up at a blues jam night just to listen (at a place where I played regularly on a different night of the week) and really enjoying the playing of a particular keyboard player, thinking he was putting interesting and thoughtful lines in, sympathetic to the guitarist/vocals etc and adding to what was a very trad uk blues sound. Then I heard someone complain that all they wanted from the keyboard player was him to just jam his fingers down on a couple of notes with a hammond and leave them there while the guitarist played all the (not very IMO) interesting stuff! I realised that they viewed the 'blues' entirely as being that particular 60s British blues-revival style driven entirely by guitars, and anything where the other players attempted to start musical dialogue was seen as overplaying. I found it pretty boring after a while and left, about the time I realised that most times the bass playing was done by guitarists marking time until their next star turn. Music with no dialogue doesn't interest me unless the player involved is truly phenomenal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lylodile Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Conan' post='1099757' date='Jan 23 2011, 03:53 PM']Once again the word 'context' is of vital importance. All of those artists have a huge back catalogue of material, played solo or as part of a band (playing their own material) or a band playing as a session player, at Music industry shows (where they are expected to demo gear and it goes without saying that they will be trying to show that gear in a good light... Some people like complex music. Not just the musicians playing it, but the audience themselves. Bass is not just a backing instrument. Bass is not just a solo instrument. Every player lies somewhere on the continuum between these two extremes, and at different times and in different contexts their position can and will vary. Which is as it should be![/quote] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilson Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) You are young, you think you have to prove you are a great player (been there done it myself). The people that would be impressed by constant meanderings are not the people whos opinion matters. Flailing around the neck all the time gets just as boring as crotchet root notes, especially to the listener. There is a time and place for everything and solo sections are where most musicians confine their virtuoso ability for. Taste is far more important than virtuosity and that will come with time and experience. Remember you are playing in an ensemble, communicating a song to the listener. Markus Edited January 25, 2011 by Markus Wilson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinynorman Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 [quote name='Markus Wilson' post='1102473' date='Jan 25 2011, 06:06 PM']You are young, you think you have to prove you are a great player (been there done it myself). The people that would be impressed by constant meanderings are not the people whos opinion matters. Flailing around the neck all the time gets just as boring as crotchet root notes, especially to the listener. Markus[/quote] Dead right. Listen to some West, Bruce & Laing sometime. What worked with Cream becomes intensely irritating when competing with Leslie West. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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