Bass tuning..Why does this happen?

[squire5]

I've noticed a strange thing that happens quite a lot when I play in a folk duo/trio.I normally play in a 4 piece rock and blues type band,but sometimes my services are required for a folk duo that occasionally require some bass back-up.The problem is this:
When the guitar player uses a capo in the course of the gig,I notice that my bass is no longer totally in tune with him.Without the capo,we're fine,but as soon as he puts a capo on the 2nd or 3rd fret,I'm no longer exactly in tune.I find myself having to bend notes to stay in tune.
Now the guitarist is using a Lowden electro-acoustic,so I doubt very much if there's problems with his intonation,and mine is spot on,so why is there this discrepancy?I also noticed it on another occasion when the guitarist was using an Ovation.Anybody have any ideas?Is my bass at fault,although I have used other basses in the past,and still experienced the same thing.Basses are Squiers.VMJ and Precision 5.

[Machines]

If your bass is perfectly in tune when you fret each note up the neck (try it with your tuner) then he must be out of tune with the capo, simples.

[Twigman]

It'll be the intonation on the guitar.....fretboards very rarely are precise enough to maintain spot on tuning at all frets and my guess is his 2nd & 3rd fret are slightly out.

[Hamsalad]

This happens a lot with Capo's on guitars. The extra tension will pull the strings out of tune, so, make sure he tunes up again after putting the capo on.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Hamsalad

[BottomEndian]

Capos are the devil's spawn for this sort of thing. The pressure they exert on the strings seems to be higher than the typical fretting pressure applied by a finger, which bends the string sharp. Result? You've got to play sharp to match. Oh, and the bending's typically not uniform across the strings either, so the guitar will need retuning [i]to itself[/i] after putting a capo on.

That's cheap capos, I should hasten to add. There are all sorts of [url="http://www.g7th.com/capos/performance"]more expensive capos[/url] that purport to exert only the necessary pressure, but I have yet to meet a guitarist who has one.

[squire5]

[quote name='BottomEndian' date='Oct 1 2010, 01:06 PM' post='973879']
Capos are the devil's spawn for this sort of thing. The pressure they exert on the strings seems to be higher than the typical fretting pressure applied by a finger, which bends the string sharp. Result? You've got to play sharp to match.

That would make sense.Although his guitar is a high end Lowden,and it stays in tune WITH ITSELF with the capo on, I can see where the extra pressure would raise the normal pitch ever so slightly,but enough for me to notice.The capo he uses is the normal run-of-the-mill Shubb brass doobie.
I guess then,that relieving the tension on the capo would help,although not so much as to cause buzzing.Either that or a better capo

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='squire5' post='973914' date='Oct 1 2010, 01:20 PM']I guess then,that relieving the tension on the capo would help[/quote]
It's definitely worth a go. IME, the Shubb ones aren't actually too bad (compared to the spring-loaded clip-on ones), but he might just have the tension ratcheted up for security.

[geoffbyrne]

Use a fretless.



Seriously.

G.

[ahpook]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='973879' date='Oct 1 2010, 01:06 PM']I guess then,that relieving the tension on the capo would help...[/quote]

plus the one - it's easy to clamp the strings down so hard that it forces the guitar out of tune.

i happens when i capo my bass sometimes...

[casapete]

I play in a duo with an acoustic guitarist who uses a capo, ( sometimes as high as 7th fret and beyond )
Never had a tuning issue with my Washburn acoustic bass at all. He uses Shubb capos on a Taylor.

As mentioned in previous posts, getting the tension correct on the capo is key issue in not messing with the tuning.
Bit of time experimenting should get it sorted.

[wateroftyne]

His guitar just needs a jolly good setup.

[tauzero]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='973879' date='Oct 1 2010, 01:06 PM']That's cheap capos, I should hasten to add. There are all sorts of [url="http://www.g7th.com/capos/performance"]more expensive capos[/url] that purport to exert only the necessary pressure, but I have yet to meet a guitarist who has one.[/quote]
For my acoustic guitar stuff (which is actually mostly done on a Variax electric), I use a G7 capo, as does a folky guitarist that I know. No tuning issues. I suspect that it's not just the capo itself but also could be the technique used to put the capo on.

[Dood]

[quote name='ahpook' post='973948' date='Oct 1 2010, 01:37 PM']plus the one - it's easy to clamp the strings down so hard that it forces the guitar out of tune.

i happens when i capo my bass sometimes...[/quote]

Agreed, the Capo is not fitted correctly/ ill fitting and thus too tight.

[squire5]

[quote name='tauzero' post='974089' date='Oct 1 2010, 02:41 PM']I suspect that it's not just the capo itself but also could be the technique used to put the capo on.[/quote]

Hmmm,another good point.I know that a few times I've put my capo on my own acoustic and have noticed that the strings are slightly displaced to one side, which would have a negative effect.That's mainly to my own ineptitude of course,but the 2 guitarists I referred to have been playing for years and know their instruments inside out,so intonation problems and set-ups aren't really an issue,as both the guys get their guitars serviced regularly by Ernie Macmillan,a widely respected guitar tech here in N.Ireland,who used to work with the Lowden Guitar Co.,also based here.So I guess it's capo technique that's to blame,rather than any instrument faults?

I'll have a word......Thanx for the input.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='squire5' post='974286' date='Oct 1 2010, 04:17 PM']So I guess it's capo technique that's to blame,rather than any instrument faults?[/quote]
Just make sure it's not exerting too much pressure, and that it's [i]just[/i] behind the fret, where a well-placed finger would be. If it's sitting midway between frets, that allows the capo to bend the string much further, pulling it much sharper.

[mart]

I agree that the capo is exherting too much pressure, but there's another more fundamental problem with capos: you're always fretting more frets than your fingers are.

Imagine playing the 10th fret on a string. You're pushing the string down to the fingerboard, creating a shallow V shape between nut and saddle. (Technically it's a V shape with a tiny flat bit on the bottom, but it's so tiny we'll overlook that). Now imagine fretting the 2nd fret AT THE SAME TIME. Now your V shape has a big wide flat bottom: you've got a shape more like this:
\_______/
The left-hand edge of the original V has been stretched into two sides of a triangle, adding more pressure to the strings. Of course they're going to go out of tune!

The same thing happens when you play barre chords, but to a smaller extent, since the barre is always close to the other fretting fingers.

Conclusion: avoid guitarists who use capos.

[pete.young]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='973879' date='Oct 1 2010, 01:06 PM']That's cheap capos, I should hasten to add. There are all sorts of [url="http://www.g7th.com/capos/performance"]more expensive capos[/url] that purport to exert only the necessary pressure, but I have yet to meet a guitarist who has one.[/quote]

The G7 is hands down the best capo that has ever existed. Never mind a guitar, I use one on a 10-string bouzouki and it stays in tune right up the neck even at the 10th fret.

All the guitarists I've worked with who have seen this capo have started out by saying "that's a lot of money for a capo" and ended up buying one when they borrow it and realise how good it is.

[AndyTravis]

In my shop we sell about 5 or 6 G7ths a week, they really are a clever bit of gear.

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

I was in a band with 2 guitars. On 2 songs they put crapos on. They just advised me to 'play up/down 2 frets' it worked.
Not entirely sure,but think a 5 string would be better to use in these situations..or a fretless as mentioned above.