When is good, good enough??

[P-T-P]

Isn't this sort of thing typical (in a good way) of us bassists? I can't think of many guitarists I know, for example, who aren't falling over themselves to show their chops at any available opportunity.

Personally, I'm comfortable with my abililties as a player, I can cut loose if needs be but I play in a covers band primarily doing clubs and parties so the need rarely crops up. I strive to do the songs justice and love it when we play something with a classic bassline, like "Reach Out I'll Be There" or whatever.

It is nice when someone comes up to you after a gig and compliments your playing, especially when the bass parts haven't been obviously challenging. That's what I've always aspired to most, to be recognised as performing the subtler points of the bass job well. I'm always conscious of the fact that I can be more in the groove, that there are better note choices I can make and that I can always hold it all together better.

Honing your chops is great, especially when you can real off a blizzard of notes just to wind up your guitarist, but the thing I always notice first and foremost about any band is how well the bass player is doing performing in his primary role and if they're not doing that it doesn't matter how flash they may be. I personally tend to judge how well I've done on a gig to gig basis by the amount of dancing that gets done, if I'm grooving well then hopefully so will the punters.

[BigRedX]

Good enough for me is to play something that is exactly right for the song, complements the vocals and other instruments and is tight with the rhythmic elements. As I alway 'hear' my bass lines in my head before I start to work out what I need/want to play on the song there's nearly always one section that will be at the limit of my playing ability when I first start playing it, but hopefully soon will be as fluent as the rest of the bass part.

[Vasquez Rich]

There's an old saying (attributed to Ginger Baker)..

"Good band, sh*t drummer, sh*t band" .. do you think this applies to bass playing also.. if at all?

[stewblack]

[quote name='Vasquez Rich' post='9459' date='May 30 2007, 08:50 PM']There's an old saying (attributed to Ginger Baker)..

"Good band, sh*t drummer, sh*t band" .. do you think this applies to bass playing also.. if at all?[/quote]
I must admit I'd not heard that quote before but I've often said similar about bands that just don't quite cut the mustard. The audience (the non musician members of it) know the band's not up to much but how many of them realise it's down to a crap drummer?
As far as bass goes I don't think it applies as fundamentaly. If the bass and drums aren't together then no matter how good the individual musicianship, the band won't work, that much is definate.

[Bassassin]

Really interesting question - "how good is good enough?", and it's always down to personal standards.

For years I got complacent about my bass playing - I spent about 7 years not in a band, I didn't give up music, though, just concentrated on writing & recording - meaning I never really played bass simply for the joy of it during that time. Mainly playing guitar & keyboards, the bass came out when it was time to record a bass line.

Getting back into gigging again brought me back into touch with why I was a musician in the first place - I fell in love with the bass all over again.

I also realised how much I'd neglected my playing, both technique and development, and for me, there's no such thing as "good enough". That's purely on a personal level - if I could play like Wooten, I'd still be as self-critical as I am now.

I read something a long time ago, I think the comment was about guitarists, but it applies equally well to us lot or any musician: Good players either have it in the hands, or in the head - great players have it in both.

Personally, I'm pleased with my creative ability as a bassist (as a songwriter I'm less happy - but that's a very different challenge) and I feel my deficiency is mostly in my hands - but that can be worked on and improved. So gaining & honing technique should encourage me to create bass parts which are less limited by what I think I can get away with.

As far as specific playing techniques are concerned, I tend to investigate the types of styles that my music [i]doesn't[/i] demand to a certain extent, just to get my head around them. I learned to slap Mark King style in the 80s, as did many players of that era - but it's yet to find a place in my music. I learned the basics of Wooten's double-thumb style, just to understand how it was done, but again, it would sound entirely out of place in the music I write, so it remains undeveloped.

I'm presently dabbling with two-handed tapping - I can't see me using it in my music (I don't particularly [i]like[/i] it - that Youtube clip in the first post was technically interesting, but as a composition I found it twee and annoying) but I'm kind of driven to understand the technique, and master the basics of it.

In a way for me, "good enough" might well be just to reach the point where I can perform consistently well, to a standard I'm happy with. I'd like to think it's achievable, but still a long way off for me.

Jon.

Edited May 31, 2007 by Bassassin

[MB1]

MB1.

This guy on utube got hygiene problems ,what happened to the rest of the band?
Theres no such thing as impossible, and this performance wouldnt get him the gig with say, the stray cats!(hes not good enough)
Keep Climbing!
all the best
MB1.

[Veils]

Very good post

Where I live, bassists are few and far between. In fact there are 3 recognised bassists in the town where I live. One is a jazz extrordinaire and is definitely better than I am, there is me and there is another young mate of mine.

Now this mate of mine has been playing 2 and a half years and joined his first band recently. He has spent the last 2 years following my band about, watching us gig, even learning my basslines and I went to watch his first gig the other night and while he started nervously, he soon settled down and played effortlessly, heeded every tip I gave him and some of his playing was an absolute joy to watch. I had a nice view of the stage as I was doing the sound engineering for the night and I felt such a feeling of pride to see the guy who learnt his way on my rig, using my bass and working out my basslines. It was totally refreshing and it inspired me more than watching any virtuoso ever could.

I know that one of these days, he will surpass me - something I do not have any problems with at all.

As for my own playing, obviously I want to be better, but I know that I am at a standard that a lot of bassists wont reach. At the same time there are many many players who are better than me, again something which I am totally comfortable with. If I can play a good gig and someone drops me a personal comment on my own playing, that makes me happy enough

[Linz]

I'll stick to singing, la la la.... ^_^

[BassJase]

Good topic....
I don't think i'm ever going to be as good as i would like to be, so hopefully i'll still be keen to learn new stuff for many years to come. I'm happier now with my playing than i've been before, but i know in a years time i'll be a lot happier still.
When it comes to receiving compliments, i really don't give a bugger unless its off another musician i like and respect. I don't wanna sound like an arsehole, but i've played plenty of gigs where the hardest b-line is bloody "summer of '69" and someone comes up and says "wow, you played really well" and i'm thinking "did i? did i really?" just because i know if i was in the audience and saw me playing, i wouldn't think it was by any means impressive.
And as for practicing (is that spelt right?!?) i really don't get concerned if i don't pick up a bass for a week or if i play 6hrs a day. When i first started (14yrs ago now, jesus...) i used to play for 6-8hrs a day, 7 days a week, but now the idea of playing when i'm not "feeling" it is completely counter-productive, like having sex when you don't want to.
So yeah, i'm happy with my playing for now, but i do consider myself a 2-out-of-10, and hopefully that will drive me to one day being more than that.

[elom]

It seems to me that what we are discussing is a bass equivalent of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs"]Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs[/url]

In that mode I would suggest that the most basic/primitive 'need' is Master The Basics - not to screw it up, not to play bum notes or lose your place - just don't be noticeably bad!

I'm now just about comfortable with that and am thinking about expanding my skills and repertoire a little. However I have neither the time, dedication or talent to be a top-notch bass player. I like being in a band - it's fun, recreation. There was a point at the end of our gig last Sunday when there were four of us on stage pogoing like demons playing basic stuff but with Cheshire cat grins on our stupid faces and I just thought "I bloody love this".

That was good enough for me!

[Phaedrus]

Good honest topic.

I agree that the most primitive need of a bass player, both from his own and the band's POV, is not to screw it up.

We (at least I, and I suspect others too) like to think we do have that need sorted, that we are good enough to get up and lay it down with a band with enough skill to pull off the performance and to entertain an audience. After we assume that basic need is sorted, we start to aspire to getting better at our fills/runs, mastering a new style or technique, improving our thoery understanding.

But now and again I'm reminded that I don't always have the basic need sorted - I slip out of the groove, I get lost in a section where the bassline might be simple 8th on the root - lots of basic stuff just dissolves on me.

There's a section in the back pages of one of the US bass mags where famous or professional players muse about bass playing. SOAD's Shavo Odajian said something that really hit me in his page - the player you should always be trying to better is yourself.

That makes real sense. If you compare your playing to others you may end up frustrated and demotivated (though equally, you may find yourself inspired to achieve that level, and if you have the will & opportunity to work toward that, then great), so improving on your own playing compared to earlier efforts is the only real measure of improvement.

I do find it extremely gratifying to hear punters at our gigs come up & say "man, you guys are [i]really[/i] tight!". In fact, after one gig, one guy came over as he & his wife were leaving and singled out me & the drummer and said "it's obvious that it's you guy's band: you two are really tight." Both of us were really stoked with that. It's not actually our band, but I guess if this incarnation were to dissolve, any future band would involve at least the two of us rather than, say me & the singer or the drummer & the guitarist.

I'm rarely, if ever told I'm a great player,That said, we do play some songs that I think have interesting & challenging basslines, or at least sections or runs/fill that are challenging: pedalling 16ths fingerstyle for Limp Bizkit's Take A Look Around took me a while to become comfortable enough with to gig. My Way by the same band is always nice to play as well. The little fill at the end of the choruses in RHCP's Hump De Bump is tricky too.

I'm satisfied with the level I'm at, given my opportunity to better my playing. My will to improve is there, motivation to improve is there, but the opportunity to improve in any dramatic way is not there - work, 3 kids, home life, etc. I'm as good as I can be given my opportunity. And that's good enough for my band to be gigging with some regularity and good enough for me to walk away satisfied that I did my best and that I had fun.

Playing bass in a band fits into my life - for some, their lives fit around playing their bass. And that's fine.

So Homer, IMO good is good enough when you can walk away knowing that given all your circumstances, you played the best you could and you enjoyed it.

Elom: just returned from a supervisory management course?

Mark

[woodster]

I fully agree with the previous comments regarding enjoying yourself and giving your all in whatever scenario you're playing in.
If you're comfortable in your musical surroundings then you're good enough.

As a working studio and live bassist, 2 things have been important to me above any other.

1. Recognition and appreciation of different genres of music.

2. The ability to play clean and reliably first time.


I've NEVER been asked to solo like Pattitucci or Wooten but I often get told to play, say, 2-step, bluegrass or reggae.

In the studio, time is money. You often have time pressures so getting it right, quickly, is paramount. Being able to come up with a line or groove in a certain style is crucial but 1000 notes per bar is not. Backing artists live, requires precision, accuracy and reliability, reproducing lines from records with little or no room for embelishments or improvisation.

So for me, 'good enough' means reliable, flexible and capable in any style. None of these skills require Grade 8 theory, the ability to solo in any mode or slap Teen Town at 120bpm.

[Marcus]

Hiya.....

The Guy in the clip can certainly play...... top marks

what he's done with that song is rip it apart to understand the components of the tune and replicated it perfectly on the bass. The looping that makes up the rhythm for the tune is really well done !

I'm sure if the guy were to contribute to the thread he'd agree that witht his sort of technique the total end result is greater than the sum of the parts...... each individual technique used to create the layers of that song in that format isn't all that complex. I believe the real skill in producing such a fine rendition of that number is in disecting the tune and working out how to best approach it. Then nailing it all together....

I certainly for one couldn't do that.......


My ambitions as a player don't stretch that far as a "hobbyist" player....... I often feel that my limited understanding of music theory holds back my progress as a musician, but doesn't prevent me enjoying the instrument. And certainly doesn't stop me playing live. I'd guess i'd be able to learn some songs quicker with a better, more rounded musical understanding. But I get there...... and for me that's all that counts.


Cheers

Marcus

[Happy Jack]

Thanks guys - this is the most thought-provoking (and supportive) thread I've seen since BassChat went live.

[Happy Jack]

Thanks guys - this is the most thought-provoking (and supportive) thread I've seen since BassChat went live.

[bassbloke]

A former friend of mine used to say he didn;t need to practice because he was good enough on guitar. The reality was that he wasn't very good at all.

The best musicians are those that put in the effort - not just because of the hours of practice but because of the mindset with which they approach their instrument. It's not about new techniques either, it's about paying attention to the quality of the notes you produce - the execution, consistency, choice, timing.

There's no harm in telling yourself that you're pretty good. Just make sure you have the humility to end it with '...but I could be so much better' It'll make you a better player.

I also think it's unfair to judge a player on YouTube showpieces. They're often meant to be extreme examples of flashy technique. It's entertainment after all.

[niceguyhomer]

I want to play like this guy but I'd need a bigger box...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B5kPYCqGC4&mode=related&search="]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B5kPYCqGC4...ted&search=[/url]

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='9680' date='May 31 2007, 02:38 AM']I also realised how much I'd neglected my playing, both technique and development, and for me, there's no such thing as "good enough". That's purely on a personal level - if I could play like Wooten, I'd still be as self-critical as I am now.[/quote]
Amen to that.

[urb]

My personal approach is to take each day as it comes with my playing - some days I'll amaze myself, others I'll put the bass down in disgust - for me playing is all about mind set, energy level, being in the mood and responding to my surroundings - I can turn up at band practice and feel awful after a long day at work, only to leave feeling 'centred' and happy again having played some good music with my band.

I've said to myself and other people asking advice that you must look at your playing and development over a long period of time. Nothing of any value comes in an instant - maybe a lottery win does - but the reality is anything that is really worth achieving takes a long time to develop but ultimately the rewards are much greater if you really work at your 'art' as the end result will have far greater depth than something that is just a quick fix... I've certainly got obsessed with too much technique in the past but now I'm much more interested in the 'musical' content of what I'm playing as opposed to how fast I can play. Striving to improve the choice of notes I play and how I select them, and writing songs as well, is what I'm working on now, song structure and arrangement are what I'm also interested in.

I know that I can improve every area of my playing so I continue to try and do this slowly but surely. The ultimate goal for me though is still being able to interact and communicate with other musicians more effectively - my favourite thing in the world is playing a great groove with a great drummer - and making the whole song and band come alive because of the way the foundation of the sound is working.

I just think try and be yourself - not anyone else - play what you like to play and get as good as you can at it - keep an open mind but just do your thing, the only person you should really try and please if yourself - and if you think you need to practice some more then go and do it - if you don't, don't - it's really up to you.


Mike

[Josh]

[quote name='urb' post='11015' date='Jun 2 2007, 01:49 PM']My personal approach is to take each day as it comes with my playing - some days I'll amaze myself, others I'll put the bass down in disgust - for me playing is all about mind set, energy level, being in the mood and responding to my surroundings - I can turn up at band practice and feel awful after a long day at work, only to leave feeling 'centred' and happy again having played some good music with my band.

I've said to myself and other people asking advice that you must look at your playing and development over a long period of time. Nothing of any value comes in an instant - maybe a lottery win does - but the reality is anything that is really worth achieving takes a long time to develop but ultimately the rewards are much greater if you really work at your 'art' as the end result will have far greater depth than something that is just a quick fix... I've certainly got obsessed with too much technique in the past but now I'm much more interested in the 'musical' content of what I'm playing as opposed to how fast I can play. Striving to improve the choice of notes I play and how I select them, and writing songs as well, is what I'm working on now, song structure and arrangement are what I'm also interested in.

I know that I can improve every area of my playing so I continue to try and do this slowly but surely. The ultimate goal for me though is still being able to interact and communicate with other musicians more effectively - my favourite thing in the world is playing a great groove with a great drummer - and making the whole song and band come alive because of the way the foundation of the sound is working.

I just think try and be yourself - not anyone else - play what you like to play and get as good as you can at it - keep an open mind but just do your thing, the only person you should really try and please if yourself - and if you think you need to practice some more then go and do it - if you don't, don't - it's really up to you.
Mike[/quote]

Amen.

Especially the bit on days when your playing can amaze you and then the next day, can make you feel awful from just picking your bass up. but I ultimatley agree in that surroundings and life experience will shape the player you will become in the end, and it's a process which is on going throughout your playing life.

Edited June 2, 2007 by Josh

[bass_ferret]

Spot on Mike, be yourself.

[barneythedog]

[quote name='urb' post='11015' date='Jun 2 2007, 12:49 PM']I just think try and be yourself - not anyone else - play what you like to play and get as good as you can at it - keep an open mind but just do your thing, the only person you should really try and please if yourself - and if you think you need to practice some more then go and do it - if you don't, don't - it's really up to you.
Mike[/quote]

[size=4]+1[/size]

[alexclaber]

I think one of the best things about music as a pasttime it isn't competitive and furthermore competiveness rarely benefits it - it's all about working in 'harmony' with other musicians.

The strange thing about bass technique is it isn't at all obvious to the average listener which bassists have excellent technique and which don't. You may say, "pah, it's obvious that so-and-so who can two handed tap and slap like a maniac has better technique than that bloke in AC/DC" but actually the converse is often true. Yes there are 'advanced' (read: flash) techniques that can be used on the bass (and sometimes they're even used well!) but they are rarely as effective as techniques like excellent muting, control of note length, ability to play around the beat.

That's not to say that those with all the flash (Mr Wooten for one) can't do that other subtler 'deeper' stuff because many of them can. But you do get the bedroom bassists that miss the point because they haven't got sufficiently involved in an ensemble.

Then there's stuff like your ear - how quickly you can pick things up, how you can identify harmony, how you can decipher intricate grooves, etc. I know I'm not good enough at some of that to play jazz well (if at all!) but in genres in which I'm more comfortable I'm not bad - but I've still a long way to go.

Returning to the technique thing, I have an excess of technique for most of the stuff I want to play yet I still don't have enough 'technique headroom' to always be within my abilities once the chaos of the live environment is thrown in. I can't tap and my slapping is pretty rudimentary but my fingers are fairly fast and I do have a whole pile of chordal strumming, thumb plucking and other esoteric techniques which are an important part of my playing, my writing and thus the sound of my band.

I don't actually practise in a remotely organised manner - instead I spend my time writing new material or going through current material, some of which is quite stretching especially that which requires running bass and chords simultaneously and playing independant rhythms with them and then singing on top.

I suppose "when is good, good enough" for me will be when my music earns me a living - and that requires me to become a great songwriter and I have a very long way to go to get there, if I ever do! The bass playing is subservient to that but as I write on bass my technique has to be good enough to not get in the way even when I'm doing relatively weird things.

Alex

[Mr Cougar]

Well what a great thread you have all started here for my 2 pence;

All the good musicians I know have one thing in common -none of them sit down and think 'right I'm going to practice' most of us (and I'm sure this goes for all of you) want to pick up their bass as soon as they see it. I'm sure you all have got in from work and picked up your axe started playing with the intention of doing something else only to 'come round' 4 hours later standing in the dark, desperate for the lav and starving hungry with sore fingers!

For me the greatest aids to developing technique are;

A single minded determination to get it perfect (you've all practiced the same thing over and over again for hours until it's right and until everyone else within 60ft is sick of hearing the same 20 notes again and again)

Joining a band (playing with a drummer whose understanding of your technique becomes almost telepathic over time is an awesome feeling)

Learning that timing is the holy grail, not fancy technique or speed(many still ignore this and are worse for it)

Improvising Live (learn your scales or just what sounds right and get up at the local club and jam, any bass player worth his salt should be able to jam 12 bar as a minimum, oh and it's super cool)

If you do these things your ability will develop almost without you noticing and all of a sudden after 13 years of playing you will think 'blimey I'm actually pretty good!'

All these fancy chops are great they are like a little sideline for bass players to wow each other with; but to use and analogy the World Footballer of the year is Fabio Cannavaro (a quietly effective central defender) not Ronaldinho or Cristiano Ronaldo despite their flicks and tricks. Cannavaro won this cos' he got the job done and his team and won the World Cup. As a bass player you are the central defence, you'll never get that much praise but when you and the drummer do your job right you will sound awesome. Let the lead guitarist and the singer do the musical equivalent of stepovers and Cruyff turns whilst you do the real work. If your not satisfied with doing that role exceptionally well then my son, you ain't no bass player, go and learn the guitar.

Finally, despite having learned every style I have been able to; fingers, slaping popping, tapping etc etc, when I come back to playing with the guys I have played with since I was 17 out comes my plectrum because that's the sound and style I want, and no amount of mocking about playing with a plectrum not being proper will stop me.

For me what makes a bass player good is when he understands the right part is the appropriate part to the music as a whole, played in time,in tune and tight, nothing more; get this right and everything else is just a bonus.

Edited June 5, 2007 by Mr Cougar

[Bass Culture]

When I was younger - about 20 years ago - I used to have guys who were younger than me who would turn up to gigs and just stand there staring at my left hand. And, of course, I used to think I was the dog's bollocks! I like to think I've got a bit more humility now and I can recognise that, yes, I was a competent player in a small town, but that was as far as it went. And, of course, if your playing draws that much attention to itself them it might be a lot of things but [i]music [/i]is unlikely to be one of them! So, now, twenty odd years later, I had the best compliment I've ever received when someone came up to me after a gig a few weeks ago and told me how much they liked my sound. And that's because, for all his chops, the thing I really connected with about Jaco's playing was the incredible sound he got. I still can't listen to the intro of 'Dream Clock' or 'Edith and the Kingpin' without thinking of someone crying. To be able to produce something with that much emotion in just a few well chosen notes would be good enough for me. I mean, I'm sure my playing might have made a few people in the audience cry in the past, but you know what I mean...

Mark