Macca

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='902732' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:18 AM']I never understood John Entwhistle. I sounded fairly good when all I had to spend on an amp was a hundred quid. Meanwhile he had practically unlimited funds and a rig half the size of Wembley and still routinely sounded like sh*t.

But he was good, right?

He also played sh*t-looking basses, so he could look like sh*t while he sounded like sh*t.

I know he's dead and all but seriously he's one of the shittest-sounding and shittest-looking bassists ever. Meanwhile McCartney managed to sound good on every record I've ever heard him on, and he wrote all the Beatles' best songs. Making him f***ing loads better than John Entwhistle at basically everything except being a pretentious pointy-guitared twat.[/quote]
Firmly put, I think.

I saw the Who with Pino Palladino playing bass a few years ago. For me his tone was so much preferable to Entwistle's and made the band sound better. Heresy maybe, but there it is.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='liamcapleton' post='902739' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:49 AM']... claiming to be better than Paul McCartney ...[/quote]
If anyone started telling me that they were better than (insert any name here) I would immediately think 'I doubt it' and the bigger the name the more I would doubt it. Anyone who might really be considered better than (insert any name here) wouldn't need to say it.

[risingson]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='902741' date='Jul 23 2010, 03:00 AM']If anyone started telling me that they were better than (insert any name here) I would immediately think 'I doubt it' and the bigger the name the more I would doubt it. Anyone who might really be considered better than (insert any name here) wouldn't need to say it.[/quote]

A huge +1 from me.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='902738' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:46 AM']I take it from what you say (quoted below) about my answers that you may not have meant me, but it certainly sounded like you meant several people.[/quote]
Steve-soar to name but one other?

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='902738' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:46 AM']I don't see why that would be the case even if everyone did like McCartney (or whoever). If I like someone's playing, even if I am influenced by them, why on earth would that stifle me. It doesn't follow.[/quote]
No it doesn't, not if you make the automatic assumption that what he did is liked? But if someone was to dislike what he did then they'd develop their own alternative, different style, sound, writing, horizons & so music evolves.


[quote name='liamcapleton' post='902739' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:49 AM']....... it should be allowed for people to voice their opinions regardless.[/quote]
Which is only what I'm looking for, opinions voiced without the author having it implied that they're tasteless, thick, unknowing or anything else. If something doesn't float your boat that's cool no matter what.
If it wasn't the case we'd all be shaking our heads about, shouting "woo, woo" with one eyebrow up in the air wouldn't we?

Edited July 23, 2010 by Big_Stu

[4000]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='902740' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:55 AM']Firmly put, I think.

I saw the Who with Pino Palladino playing bass a few years ago. For me his tone was so much preferable to Entwistle's and made the band sound better. Heresy maybe, but there it is.[/quote]

Personally I don't thnk Pino suits the Who at all, so it's horses for courses. I also love pretty much every permutation of John's sound (the T-Bird sound least though) but I [i]like[/i] the "guitar" part of "bass guitar".

Oh, and personally I think Phil Collins is a [i]great[/i] drummer, but if someone doesn't like him fair enough.

Edited July 23, 2010 by 4000

[oldslapper]

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='902697' date='Jul 23 2010, 01:35 AM']Never in my life have I seen so many patronising tw@ts all in one thread.[/quote]

???!!!

memo to self....."dear O.S. don't post on discussions about individual players, you patronising tw@t, it always ends up with handbags at dawn"

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='4000' post='902787' date='Jul 23 2010, 08:15 AM']Personally I don't thnk Pino suits the Who at all, so it's horses for courses. I also love pretty much every permutation of John's sound (the T-Bird sound least though) but I [i]like[/i] the "guitar" part of "bass guitar".[/quote]
I realise my view is outside the mainstream. I've got nothing against Entwistle, he was a very creative player and his lines are essential to the Who. It's only the tone I have trouble with.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='902747' date='Jul 23 2010, 03:17 AM']Steve-soar to name but one other?[/quote]
Well, I don't see it, but Steve can respond if he wants to. Who else? Remember you said: 'Never in my life have I seen [u][b]so many patronising tw@ts all in one thread[/b][/u].' There must be quite a few people.

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='902747' date='Jul 23 2010, 03:17 AM']No it doesn't, not if you make [b][u]the automatic assumption that what he did is liked[/u][/b]?[/quote]
I didn't make the 'automatic assumption that what he did is liked', it is exactly what you said:
[quote name='Big_Stu' post='902731' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:17 AM']If everyone [u][b]liked[/b][/u] what he or any other individual player did in the past in would surely stifle progression or development of the many and varied musical genre that have followed since.[/quote]
Now you say:
[quote name='Big_Stu' post='902747' date='Jul 23 2010, 03:17 AM']But if someone was to [u][b]dislike[/b][/u] what he did then they'd develop their own alternative, different style, sound, writing, horizons & so music evolves.[/quote]
So the different issue you now raise seems to be 'does music evolve by rejecting the past or by building on the past?'. I'd say music evolves in both of those ways and new things happen at least as often when something old is rediscovered as when something old is rejected.

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='902747' date='Jul 23 2010, 03:17 AM']Which is only what I'm looking for, opinions voiced without the author having it implied that they're tasteless, thick, unknowing or anything else. If something doesn't float your boat that's cool no matter what.
If it wasn't the case we'd all be shaking our heads about, shouting "woo, woo" with one eyebrow up in the air wouldn't we? [/quote]
I can't see that the response that you are referring to did anything but state (quite calmy really) a reasonable opinion in response to a strongly worded opinion from someone else. It was nothing.

[JTUK]

From a tecnical POV, McCartney is rather a naff player, IMO.
From an influencial POV, He is right up there by virtue of his partnership in the Beatles.

Neither Lennon or McCartney got anywhere near the same level again in songwriting terms on their own and it is odd
that you could put one or another that far ahead and say who was the best element of the partnership.. I'd say Lennon shaded it
looking at his solo catalogue, but not by much.

Just as the Beatles were really right on the ball with their songs, the solo efforts were way off target for the most part, IMV.

I can listen to Beatles songs after all this time...I'd turn off a program about their solo work. Don't start me on Wings or whatever.
McCartney survives today as a headline act solely by virtue of his Beatles cataloue.

It isn't true about top players not playing with lesser musos...like Collins or somesuch...if the salary is there.
McCartney and Collins could pay top rate for their tours, but would be unlikely to get the very best out of the studio as the kudos maybe wouldn't cover their money at home and also, when you become unavailable, someone else takes that chair. I'd suggest.

It is the reason why Gadd never toured much when he was THE NY drummer.. I heard him say in an interview..nobody could afford him and he couldn't afford to loose his chair. Maybe he could afford to be more picky at the time.

Anyway, I'd be firmly in the NO camp, re McCartney. I don't get this melodic slant either...
'I want you' as a bassline is atrocious, IMV and to this day, I wont play it. Our singer REALLY wants to do it as well...

[EdwardHimself]

I personally think Macca is an okay bass player. Not particularly amazing but okay. However i do think he is a grade-A prick. I mean "meat free monday?" What the f*** is that about? Supposedly about being good for the environment? Yeah give it a f***ing break man! We all know you just want to save the cute little farm animals. Get f***ed, w***er.

[JTUK]

LMAO

I thought that was funny..and it is good to see a bit of humour back here at times.

[grahamd]

Wings… the band the Beatles could have been

[JTUK]

[quote name='grahamd' post='902907' date='Jul 23 2010, 10:23 AM']Wings… the band the Beatles could have been[/quote]


Well, Jeff Brittain was a character, ......liked him.

[lonestar]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='902324' date='Jul 22 2010, 08:33 PM']I think he's great but slightly overrated. Later stuff was very good.[/quote]

Ah Wings! The band the Beatles could have been
A. Partridge

sorry just seen post above

Edited July 23, 2010 by lonestar

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='JTUK' post='902860' date='Jul 23 2010, 09:43 AM']From a tecnical POV, McCartney is rather a naff player, IMO.
From an influencial POV, He is right up there by virtue of his partnership in the Beatles.

Neither Lennon or McCartney got anywhere near the same level again in songwriting terms on their own and it is odd
that you could put one or another that far ahead and say who was the best element of the partnership..[/quote]

Because it's obvious if you listen to the Beatles songs which ones were written by Paul McCartney and which ones were written by John Lennon. They shared credits on them all but you can tell which ones they wrote on their own.

[purpleblob]

I once had a long discussion/argument back in the days of the newsgroups (on the internet) with fellow bass players regarding Paul McCartney.

My personal opinion is that he was a massively influential song writer and the Beatles were equally a massively influential band, but he was not then and is not now a great bassist.

At the time I personally think Jamerson was light years ahead of him in every single aspect of bass playing. But, and this is where my fellow newsgroup posters missed the point, just because I don't rate him as a great player does not mean I think he's rubbish either. If you like his style of playing, that's great, for me it lacked creativity - but that's just me

To me McCartney was and is primarily a songwriter, and secondly a bassist and there's nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

[Rich]

Opinions are like arseholes, in that everybody's got one. When you think yours is the only valid opinion, you start [i]being[/i] an arsehole.

I've always liked 'Lady Madonna' myself.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='purpleblob' post='902988' date='Jul 23 2010, 11:24 AM']I once had a long discussion/argument back in the days of the newsgroups (on the internet) with fellow bass players regarding Paul McCartney.

My personal opinion is that he was a massively influential song writer and the Beatles were equally a massively influential band, but he was not then and is not now a great bassist.

[b]At the time I personally think Jamerson was light years ahead of him in every single aspect of bass playing.[/b] But, and this is where my fellow newsgroup posters missed the point, just because I don't rate him as a great player does not mean I think he's rubbish either. If you like his style of playing, that's great, for me it lacked creativity - but that's just me

To me McCartney was and is primarily a songwriter, and secondly a bassist and there's nothing whatsoever wrong with that.[/quote]
I think you're correct about Jamerson and I suspect McCartney himself might well agree. Many 60s bass players, including McCartney, would have been listening to Jamerson and trying to learn from him.

[purpleblob]

[quote name='Rich' post='903011' date='Jul 23 2010, 11:36 AM']Opinions are like arseholes, in that everybody's got one. When you think yours is the only valid opinion, you start [i]being[/i] an arsehole.

I've always liked 'Lady Madonna' myself.[/quote]

Ooo, was that aimed at my opinion or just generally ?

[purpleblob]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='903013' date='Jul 23 2010, 11:39 AM']I think you're correct about Jamerson and I suspect McCartney himself might well agree. Many 60s bass players, including McCartney, would have been listening to Jamerson and trying to learn from him.[/quote]

I personally think Jamerson is often forgotten about. I think (if my poor old memory is still working) Carol Kaye was also around then and doing some good stuff also.

But like I said, whilst Macca isn't my idea of a great bassist, all that matters is really whether you like listening to him. And yes, I totally agree with you - I'm pretty sure I read that Macca was heavily influenced by Jamerson (I believe he mentioned it in an interview for some magazine a fair while back, and who wouldn't have been ).

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='purpleblob' post='903021' date='Jul 23 2010, 11:49 AM']I personally think Jamerson is often forgotten about. I think (if my poor old memory is still working) Carol Kaye was also around then and doing some good stuff also.[/quote]
Carole Kaye is on much of the Beach Boys material, so yes. Joe Osborn and Duck Dunn and lots of other session players no doubt were influences too, including John Paul Jones in the UK. But I also suspect that some influence went the other way, particularly to younger up and coming players.

[quote name='purpleblob' post='903021' date='Jul 23 2010, 11:49 AM']But like I said, whilst Macca isn't my idea of a great bassist, all that matters is really whether you like listening to him. And yes, I totally agree with you - I'm pretty sure I read that Macca was heavily influenced by Jamerson (I believe he mentioned it in an interview for some magazine a fair while back, and who wouldn't have been ).[/quote]
In the [i]Standing in the Shadows of Motown[/i] book, McCartney says about Jamerson: "... his style of bass playing for Motown was one of my major influences when I was learning electric bass".

[purpleblob]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='903039' date='Jul 23 2010, 12:01 PM']Carole Kaye is on much of the Beach Boys material, so yes. Joe Osborn and Duck Dunn and lots of other session players no doubt were influences too, including John Paul Jones in the UK. But I also suspect that some influence went the other way, particularly to younger up and coming players.[/quote]

I don't doubt McCartney was an influence to others, being in the Beatles it might have been difficult not to be The thing is it's really so difficult to truly understand a musicians influence so many years later because it gets diluted and a form of revisionism takes place or we reassess what we think is good based upon the latest greatest fads or players.

I certainly don't doubt Macca's place in bass playing history, if for nothing other than that horrid bloody violin bass .

EDIT: spelling mistake and slight addition to make explanation clearer.

Edited July 23, 2010 by purpleblob

[EssentialTension]

For me, another thing about McCartney's bass playing is that he sometimes has a tuba-like feel. I suspect that's the English popular music influence (as opposed to the American Rock & Roll and Rhythm & Blues) that is found in a lot of Beatles songs - northern brass bands, music hall, that sort of thing.

[Dave Vader]

I don't like McCartney, and I don't like his songs either.
However, playing in covers bands, you do tend to end up learning a lot of Beatles stuff, and I am consistently impressed with his bass lines. Recently, most shocked while learning While My Guitar Gently Weeps, to discover where JPJ got the middle of Babe I'm Gonna Leave you from. Seriously, crank the bass on that track, stupidly heavy, and its Macca.
Grudgingly one has to admit that people who play music you don't like, can be quite good at it.
Like Phil Collins..... great drummer, f**kawful songs

[JTUK]

Never liked Phil Collins on drums either.. hate his feel and strike..too slappy..
best thing he ever did was try to sing and have to get out front. That allowed them to get another guy in...