Cultural appropriation and covers

[tauzero]

5 minutes ago, super al said:

I always felt conflicted playing 10cc's Dreadlock Holiday. Great tune to play but a reggae song written and played by four British white men adopting sort of Jamaican accents for parts of the song.

 

It was only after learning it and playing it in rehearsal that I thought " I don't like this", but It was fun bassline to play and I think we played it live a couple of times. Even though I'm not in that band and not playing that song anymore I still think it was wrong to play it.

 

I guess that would come under cultural appropriation by association maybe? 

 

I didn't want to do it when it was suggested by one band as it just strikes me as racist.

[DF Shortscale]

21 hours ago, peteb said:

 

it's also the most middle class thing ever!

 

If the OP feels that he has to apologise before playing a song that you might not expect them to, then perhaps they could jokingly announce the song as 'some might think it strange that five white guys from the south east of England could play a song about the struggles of people in a land far away that we know very little about... but we're gonna do it anyway! It's a great song and I hope that we can do it justice'... 

 

That’s probably the nicest way to handle it, I agree. Although one big issue that sticks out is that the song will potentially be played to an international audience who are at least in part going to be from those lands far away. Doesn’t sit right with me at all..

[Stub Mandrel]

9 hours ago, super al said:

I always felt conflicted playing 10cc's Dreadlock Holiday. Great tune to play but a reggae song written and played by four British white men adopting sort of Jamaican accents for parts of the song.

 

It was only after learning it and playing it in rehearsal that I thought " I don't like this", but It was fun bassline to play and I think we played it live a couple of times. Even though I'm not in that band and not playing that song anymore I still think it was wrong to play it.

 

I guess that would come under cultural appropriation by association maybe? 

 

I would say no... unless you feel West Indians shouldn't play punk or heavy metal. But the lyrics do some dodgy stereotyping.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2025/jan/23/10ccs-graham-gouldman-every-west-indian-person-ive-spoken-to-loves-dreadlock-holiday-but-i-wouldnt-write-certain-lines-now

[Dan Dare]

What we call "culture" - any culture - is a snapshot in time. It didn't start out the way it is now and it will continue to evolve and develop in the future. All art and music borrows/steals from and builds on what went before. That borrowing/building process crosses all boundaries - national, geographical, racial and so on. Once a style of music or art is out in the world, nobody can claim to "own" it (I appreciate there is such a thing as copyright, but that's to do with the melody, structure, etc of a piece, not its origins). So as long as you play a piece of music sincerely (you don't take the p out of it, obvs) and to the best of your ability, I don't see an issue.

[MacDaddy]

Macbeth, opera by Verdi. Because  nothing says “Scottish tragedy” like storming a castle to the sound of bel canto 😖

It might not be cultural appropriation but it's annoying!

[itu]

If you play baroque music, should you use A = 415 Hz, not tempered scales, original instruments, but not forget those extramarital affairs, different conflicts with contemporaries, controversial political views etc.? 

 

Can you play music, or are we just discussing about a performance that includes numerous details that seem to be more important than the music itself? 

 

I hate Springsteen singing, although his songs are fine. To me Dylan sounds dreadful, and many of his songs are total #rap. I like some of Wolfgang's music, although he was next to impossible as a person (I am more than happy that social media wasn't invented earlier). Do I have to tell a story (an excuse) before I play any music from Marvin Gaye, Michael Jackson, or Charlie Mingus? Or should I just let the listeners to choose between enjoying their music, or thinking about their actions? 

[DF Shortscale]

2 hours ago, itu said:

If you play baroque music, should you use A = 415 Hz, not tempered scales, original instruments, but not forget those extramarital affairs, different conflicts with contemporaries, controversial political views etc.? 

 

Can you play music, or are we just discussing about a performance that includes numerous details that seem to be more important than the music itself? 

 

I hate Springsteen singing, although his songs are fine. To me Dylan sounds dreadful, and many of his songs are total #rap. I like some of Wolfgang's music, although he was next to impossible as a person (I am more than happy that social media wasn't invented earlier). Do I have to tell a story (an excuse) before I play any music from Marvin Gaye, Michael Jackson, or Charlie Mingus? Or should I just let the listeners to choose between enjoying their music, or thinking about their actions? 

 

Can you really separate the music from its meaning and purpose though? That's kind of what I'm asking. If that's ok in music, is it ok everywhere else? Should you wear a swastika t-shirt because you enjoy the shapes and colours, and ignore the meaning? 

 

I don't think this is an easy question to answer btw, music is different to visual media and meaning and purpose are multi-layered and change over time, as others have pointed out, but it's interesting that there is no clear consensus. Some people suggest that the meaning doesn't matter, others say it does matter but as long as it's approached with care it's ok, and a few think it really matters and it can't be ignored. Lots of grey areas.

[Beedster]

7 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I still think it was wrong to play it

 

Re Dreadlock Holiday I suspect that 10cc would agree.

 

There's a post on here somewhere from about 10-15 years back when one of the members was playing in an Americana band that, as many did, used a Confederate flag as a stage prop. A member of the audience took offence and I think there was some discussion about the legitimacy of that response. For me the bottom line is that I would never want a member of the (relatively small) audience I play to feeling in any way uncomfortable at one of our gigs. Our guitarist suggested a track a while back and we were all a little surprised that our drummer said no, and did so categorically. It's quite well known song and the lyrics in question were (I assume) intended by the writer as deeply ironic. But the drummer was firm and argued that if he felt uncomfortable with the ambiguity about the irony, so might others. It was quite a helpful process because it allowed us to get to a point at which we agreed that given the sheer number of bloody decent songs out there, we should never feel any pressure to play a song that might make us or any of our audience feel uncomfortable. 

 

Does this mean that I feel that music shouldn't create discomfort? Not at all. My view is that all art should have that power. But I think there's a big difference between us lot playing a song that creates discomfort for either us or the audience, and the original performers doing the same. I suspect the difference is the the artist/entertainer distinction, the original performer was the former, while we are in real terms the latter.  

[Baloney Balderdash]

1 hour ago, DF Shortscale said:

 

Can you really separate the music from its meaning and purpose though? That's kind of what I'm asking. If that's ok in music, is it ok everywhere else? Should you wear a swastika t-shirt because you enjoy the shapes and colours, and ignore the meaning? 

 

I don't think this is an easy question to answer btw, music is different to visual media and meaning and purpose are multi-layered and change over time, as others have pointed out, but it's interesting that there is no clear consensus. Some people suggest that the meaning doesn't matter, others say it does matter but as long as it's approached with care it's ok, and a few think it really matters and it can't be ignored. Lots of grey areas.

I don't think it is fair to compare a Fela Kuti to a swastica t-shirt.

 

Also if you can't relate to the song's lyrics, don't play it.

 

This goes as far as I am concerned for everything.

 

You are not going to do a song justice if you can't relate to it.

 

And if all it is to you is a nice tune, maybe you are right that it would be disrespectful to play it.

 

I would hope though that most people can empathize with other people's suffering no matter what color their skin happens to be and no matter where they happen to live.

 

Edited 22 hours ago by Baloney Balderdash

[itu]

This is complicated. 

 

I want to point out that if we look back at the history, we should be aware that today's social media is faster and far more aggressive to judge people compared to historical composers and musicians. If we dig any deeper, there are many, many very controversial opinions said out loud. Such that today many would nail those persons right away. 

 

We are wiser than ever before - so was the people in Germany in the 30's. Still I read news on a daily basis which tell me about wars, famine, dictators... Why it is impossible to solve problems instead of cause more of them? 

 

If Roger Waters supports Russia instead of Ukraine, Pink Floyd still has a few good songs. Prokofiev, Wagner... let's not go to this. As was seen from @Beedster's flag example, there are lots of loud people who do not understand satire at all, although satire can be done like Kenny Everett did: with the best possible taste. 

[Beer of the Bass]

I listen to Fela Kuti fairly often, and I think I'd feel pretty uncomfortable if I was on stage playing Zombie with a white British guy singing the lyrics, especially given the amount of pidgin Kuti used. I would absolutely play stuff influenced by that style, but singing those actual songs feels a step further than I'd be comfortable with. 

Though I'm not claiming any great virtue on this type of thing - a couple of decades ago I played with one or two bands that dipped into other cultures in a "middle class white kids playing dress-up" way that I still cringe to think about. 

Edited 19 hours ago by Beer of the Bass

[DF Shortscale]

26 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said:

I listen to Fela Kuti fairly often, and I think I'd feel pretty uncomfortable if I was on stage playing Zombie with a white British guy singing the lyrics, especially given the amount of pidgin Kuti used. I would absolutely play stuff influenced by that style, but singing those actual songs feels a step further than I'd be comfortable with. 

Though I'm not claiming any great virtue on this type of thing - a couple of decades ago I played with one or two bands that dipped into other cultures in a "middle class white kids playing dress-up" way that I still cringe to think about. 

I think you've hit the nail on the head there - playing stuff influenced by styles / genres is the right way to tackle this, it's very different to playing direct covers. Jamming on an afro-beat inspired groove feels much less cringe worthy than doing a Fela Kuti impression.

[MacDaddy]

4 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Also if you can't relate to the song's lyrics, don't play it.

 

This goes as far as I am concerned for everything.

 

You are not going to do a song justice if you can't relate to it.

 

And if all it is to you is a nice tune, maybe you are right that it would be disrespectful to play it.

 

If I haven't lived in a yellow submarine, or got my kicks on Route 66, or can't remember the summer of '69, there are certain songs I can't play because I can't relate to them? 🫤

[chris_b]

48 minutes ago, MacDaddy said:

 

If I haven't lived in a yellow submarine, or got my kicks on Route 66, or can't remember the summer of '69, there are certain songs I can't play because I can't relate to them? 🫤

 

The summer of 69 had its moments.

 

I still don't like playing the song though.

[Steve Browning]

7 hours ago, MacDaddy said:

 

If I haven't lived in a yellow submarine, or got my kicks on Route 66, or can't remember the summer of '69, there are certain songs I can't play because I can't relate to them? 🫤

I recall Maureen Lipman saying that gentiles should not play roles depicting Jewish characters. I believed that was what acting was. 

 

Not sure what 'ology' covers that. 

[DF Shortscale]

6 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

I recall Maureen Lipman saying that gentiles should not play roles depicting Jewish characters. I believed that was what acting was. 

 

Not sure what 'ology' covers that. 

 

That will be the ’ology’ that also applies to this no longer being something that sane people do: 

 

[tegs07]

11 minutes ago, DF Shortscale said:

 

That will be the ’ology’ that also applies to this no longer being something that sane people do: 

 

This all boils down to respect and sensitivity. If a performer resorts to parody then they will only embarrass themselves and potentially offend others. Ben Kingsley is a Quaker and is neither a Jain or a Hindu but most would agree he did a pretty decent performance as Ghandi. He was also great in Sexy Beast with Ray Winston. Ray Winston as Ghandi however would be parody.

[MacDaddy]

2 hours ago, DF Shortscale said:

 

That will be the ’ology’ that also applies to this no longer being something that sane people do: 

 

 

 

 

If you think non-jewish actors playing Jewish characters is as bad as blackface you must also object to this:

 

 

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by MacDaddy

[Misdee]

If musicians want to play some music that's strongly identified with a culture, ethnicity or race that's not their own then that's a wholly positive thing. Whether they make a good job of interpreting and performing the music is an entirely different discussion, but to say that certain music is out-of-bounds is ridiculous.

 

You can't use  potential offense as a yardstick for what is and isn't permissable. All kinds of people get offended about all kinds of things. Individuals have a right to cause offense. They may be justified in doing so.

 

Human beings are capable of infinite subtlety and music is one of the sublime expressions of that subtlety. That so many people would give such conscientious consideration to a dogma that places offense and historical grievances above all else is an ominous development. Even if those things were true they would not justify compromising anyone's right to freedom of expression. . 

 

If you want to play Fela Kuti then play Fela Kuti. If it sounds crap and/or you look ridiculous playing it, we'll let you know. The responsibility for making a decent job of it is yours.

Edited 7 hours ago by Misdee

[Leonard Smalls]

Not being a fan of to-the-note-and-word covers, I'd say do it, but make it your own. Put a spin on it, a different feel, different instrumentation, whatever. 

But don't copy it. Copies are rarely more than a shadow of the original.

[Lozz196]

3 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

I recall Maureen Lipman saying that gentiles should not play roles depicting Jewish characters. I believed that was what acting was. 

 

Not sure what 'ology' covers that. 

Yeah seen similar stuff, like straight people shouldn’t play gays etc. Gonna be pretty stuffed when the next film about a mass murderer gets written, who do they let out of jail to play the lead?

[Stub Mandrel]

3 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

I recall Maureen Lipman saying that gentiles should not play roles depicting Jewish characters. I believed that was what acting was. 

 

Not sure what 'ology' covers that. 

 

That's büggered up the plans for a lot of Nativity plays this Christmas. 

 

But seriously... that begs the question, should Jews play Christians? Can a Muslim play a Hindu? Is it a matter of faith or origin? If your mother was an aethist and your father followed Shinto, can you play either, both or just the mixture?

 

All these 'rules' sound like special pleading once you start to look at the underlying logic. Where do you draw the lines? Can anyone portray a fictional character or sing a figurative song as there's no real lived experience? 

 

 

[DF Shortscale]

Lots of good comments everyone, some I agree with some I don’t, but interesting to read all the different opinions.

[ian61]

The endlessly offended need to do some careful thinking. There are a million books some may deem offensive, do they all need to be burnt?  And lets not even get started on painterly art and, hard sculpture dripping with the "exploited nude female".

 

Three pages in and no-one has said these words...."Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery". 10cc wrote a fantastic little tune and figured in all innocense it would make sense to try and make it sound black, makes perfect sense to me.

 

How about UB40?  I dont know if Ali's voice is naturally black sounding or he's putting it on.....but it certainly sounds appropriate and the band and entourage was full of black comrades and great friends. 

 

Be careful what you wish for cause if we carry on down this path, all art and expression which is wrongly deemed to be be-litteling someone will eventually be crushed. Then what? 

[Beer of the Bass]

Nobody is saying anything should be crushed, destroyed or banned, the thread is literally a question of "I am unsure if I want to do this thing, would you?". Personally I would choose not to, we all have that choice.