Silent stages - a soul-less gigging experience?

[Chienmortbb]

1 hour ago, lemmywinks said:

and the keys player won't get a smaller keyboard)

Of course he won't, he would be restricted to piano and organ parts then rather than trying to do everything.

[Jack]

17 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

 

 

Think I've listed it on the last "I love IEMs / I hate IEMs" thread! It's a  Behringer XR18 and 2 x Alto TS210 with a single Alto sub, TS15 or something like that. The rack bag is the G4M 3u shallow.

 

The two lads that joined already had the speakers from their last band so I assumed we'd be using them on a temporary basis until we had enough for some RCF cabs in the band kitty, was genuinely surprised at how good they sounded in a decent sized room though. Years later and we haven't upgraded yet!

 

Our old setup was 2 x RCF725 with 2 RCF subs, did some huge outdoor events (playing on a league one football pitch to one of the stands) with that rig and was brilliant, the subs weighed a lot though and were pretty massive. Wouldn't expect anything like that from the Altos but for indoor use they're very capable.

 

We're a 5 piece with keys (and the keys player won't get a smaller keyboard) so can struggle for stage space, I'm pretty tall so always struggled with hearing myself if I was right on top of my cabs. Don't miss my amps at all but do miss those RCF subs!

That makes a lot of sense. My hard rock bacd has been using Alto TS for over a decade now. 15 tops and 18 subs, one stack each side (yes, yes, center cluster...) and we feel the same. They are certainly over that 'good enough' threshold.

[lemmywinks]

39 minutes ago, Jack said:

That makes a lot of sense. My hard rock bacd has been using Alto TS for over a decade now. 15 tops and 18 subs, one stack each side (yes, yes, center cluster...) and we feel the same. They are certainly over that 'good enough' threshold.

 

The first gig we did with them I was doing the drum levels and was actually a bit surprised at how clear the kick was, half expected it to be pure mud or fart out. Big room and a single sub as well.

 

 

I can still remember the first PA we bought decades ago - Peavey HP400 with two huge subs, a floor standing rack unit with 3 stupidly heavy power amps, a separate crossover and an old Studiomaster (IIRC) desk in it and two heavy (and useless) wooden wedge monitors. Cost a fortune, didn't sound all that great, took an age to set up and was a PITA to load in/out. Our power amps kept breaking so we eventually had to add an additional one as a backup.

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

The first gig we did with them I was doing the drum levels and was actually a bit surprised at how clear the kick was, half expected it to be pure mud or fart out. Big room and a single sub as well.

 

I can still remember the first PA we bought decades ago - Peavey HP400 with two huge subs, a floor standing rack unit with 3 stupidly heavy power amps, a separate crossover and an old Studiomaster (IIRC) desk in it and two heavy (and useless) wooden wedge monitors. Cost a fortune, didn't sound all that great, took an age to set up and was a PITA to load in/out. Our power amps kept breaking so we eventually had to add an additional one as a backup.

 

Interesting that you found the RCF subs to be noticeably better. Can you remember which model you used? The RCF 705s look like a decent compromise of weight/power but won't be able to compete price wise with the Altos.

[lemmywinks]

47 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Interesting that you found the RCF subs to be noticeably better. Can you remember which model you used? The RCF 705s look like a decent compromise of weight/power but won't be able to compete price wise with the Altos.

 

Well we had two of them and they were much bigger, heavier and more expensive! I think they were the 705 but the older versions, we got lucky and picked them up for £500 for the pair used. Even in smaller venues we'd use them both, not really for volume but more for the audio quality benefit.

 

Our current sub is lighter than one of our old RCF 725 tops.

[Jack]

6 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

Interesting that you found the RCF subs to be noticeably better. Can you remember which model you used? The RCF 705s look like a decent compromise of weight/power but won't be able to compete price wise with the Altos.

We have a pair of the 705ii in my indie rock band. I'm on record (even in this thread) as saying that I think the Altos are great but the rcf walk over them. They go deeper and louder. To make the point we usually just run one, we've never ran just one Alto.

Edited April 26 by Jack

[lemmywinks]

Don't have any better pics (did have some zoomed out ones) but this is the sort of outdoor event we could do with the RCF setup

1.bmp

Edited April 26 by lemmywinks

[tauzero]

14 hours ago, Jack said:

That makes a lot of sense. My hard rock bacd has been using Alto TS for over a decade now. 15 tops and 18 subs, one stack each side (yes, yes, center cluster...) and we feel the same. They are certainly over that 'good enough' threshold.

 

I'm using Alto TS408s for FOH and TS308s (previously FOH) as monitors. PA is vocal only or vocal/guitar if the second guitarist doesn't want to carry his cab in.

[mrtcat]

On 26/04/2024 at 18:28, Jack said:

We have a pair of the 705ii in my indie rock band. I'm on record (even in this thread) as saying that I think the Altos are great but the rcf walk over them. They go deeper and louder. To make the point we usually just run one, we've never ran just one Alto.

We have the same subs and they're extremely good and also nice and compact. A pair of them coupled together can out run our RCF 745 tops and therefore they do more than we need to do which is exactly what I want in subs. That way I know we're not pushing them too hard.

[Elfrasho]

It's generally only guitarists that find that and I have a suspicion its because they now can hear clearly what they're actually playing so they now need to actually play properly rather than rely on the wall  raw volume to mask their playing!

 

 

[StingRayBoy42]

19 minutes ago, Elfrasho said:

It's generally only guitarists that find that and I have a suspicion its because they now can hear clearly what they're actually playing so they now need to actually play properly rather than rely on the wall  raw volume to mask their playing!

 

 

If they can tell you're out of tune, you need more distortions

[Babyboomer]

I'm in a three piece covers band. We don't use in ears, but two of us are interested.

The problem that we can forsee is that without anyone FOH to check and adjust the PA, it could be very difficult to know what the audience are hearing.

 

[EBS_freak]

42 minutes ago, Babyboomer said:

I'm in a three piece covers band. We don't use in ears, but two of us are interested.

The problem that we can forsee is that without anyone FOH to check and adjust the PA, it could be very difficult to know what the audience are hearing.

 

If you sound check things should be ok - as with inears, you are less inclined to have players turn around and mess with their amps. Less ear fatigue also further reduces reduces this risk.

[Al Krow]

[Deleted comment: a much more useful / straightforward suggestion by @gazhowe below 😊]

Edited May 4 by Al Krow

[gazhowe]

6 hours ago, Babyboomer said:

I'm in a three piece covers band. We don't use in ears, but two of us are interested.

The problem that we can forsee is that without anyone FOH to check and adjust the PA, it could be very difficult to know what the audience are hearing.

 

If you have a wireless system for your bass or a long lead you can go out front to sound check without your iem in. Provided everything sounds good you have to then assume that there will be nothing major that needs fixing in the mix and avoid adjusting anything on your mixing desk mid-set (assuming you don't go out front again and listen again without your iem's in).

Edited May 4 by gazhowe

[Phil Starr]

On 04/05/2024 at 08:03, Babyboomer said:

I'm in a three piece covers band. We don't use in ears, but two of us are interested.

The problem that we can forsee is that without anyone FOH to check and adjust the PA, it could be very difficult to know what the audience are hearing.

 

The trick is to take your time to set up a good sound at a technical rehearsal. Once you know you have a good mix then that becomes what you take to every gig so it is then just about adjusting the volume to suit the venue. You might want to adjust the eq to match the room but something you’ve taken hours doing is going to be much better than making adjustments from behind your PA which you can’t hear.

 

It takes a bit of discipline not to change your instrument volumes gig to gig and I still go out front with a radio connection to have a listen but unless someone competent is sitting out front mixing it’s the best you can do. 

[Chienmortbb]

On 11/05/2024 at 10:21, Phil Starr said:

but unless someone competent is sitting out front mixing

I could go off on a rant again but…. A live performance is never perfect, and possibly shouldn’t be. It should be as good as you can make it. Then play and sing as well as you can. 

[Al Krow]

Well after last Friday's pub gig when @ratman did an excellent job depping for me, and both he and the guitarist used backline, our vocalist has decided that the vocals sound better through the RCF732A PA without bass and guitar competing and that it was pretty straightforward to get a decently balanced mix. 

 

So I'm going to let the main line-up have their wish and revert to using backline, without FoH support, which will undoubtedly be a more enjoyable gigging experience for us individually and if it turns out not to be, then I guess Alex will find himself doing more dep gigs 😂

[Phil Starr]

On 16/05/2024 at 00:21, Al Krow said:

Well after last Friday's pub gig when @ratman did an excellent job depping for me, and both he and the guitarist used backline, our vocalist has decided that the vocals sound better through the RCF732A PA without bass and guitar competing and that it was pretty straightforward to get a decently balanced mix. 

 

So I'm going to let the main line-up have their wish and revert to using backline, without FoH support, which will undoubtedly be a more enjoyable gigging experience for us individually and if it turns out not to be, then I guess Alex will find himself doing more dep gigs 😂

 

I guess that's probably the main thing. I've still got a backline amp and speaker plus a set of floor monitors for times when we use deps. Though the better deps use in-ears more often than not, or maybe I've had a lucky run.

 

For the point of keeping the discussion alive though I'm going to play Devil's advocate a little. How does the singer know it sounds better front of house when you use back line? I assume she didn't go out into the audience area for any length of time and this is just a feeling that it's got to be better because it's 'just me'. Or maybe she's using some bleed from the PA to add to her monitoring and it genuinely sounded better for her at the expense of the out front sound. Does she use in-ears? If she doesn't the sound for her will be very different from having everything coming out of the PA. Guitar and vocals will be beamed forwards with almost nothing 45deg off axis but your deep bass will be radiating 360. If you have left the back line at home or turned it down because you don't need it to fill the room then it will radically change the sound she hears on stage and the dominant sound without adjustments will be your bass. I know your current mixer doesn't allow multiple aux mixes so you are limited here. In the end though you can't go fully mixed into the PA without a lot of work on your monitoring.

 

There is another factor of course, thre are a lot of things we as humans like that aren't good for us, primitive urges that worked in evolutionary time but trip us up in the modern world. We like sweetness, umami flavours, salt and fat in our food. In taste tests we'll go for anything that is high in those. The obesity problem is caused in part because we can manufacture food that appears to primitive us to be nutritious but is over calorific.We also like adrenaline in our lives, so long as it isn't too much. Loud noises stimulate adrenaline production and in listening tests we always prefer the loudest sounds. Salesmen will persistently turn up the device they want to sell to you. Primitive us like loud sounds, it is exciting when the drummer is really hitting and the amps are all at 11. The adrenaline rush though is because the sound is actually injuring us, our body is identifying this as a fight or flight situation. It's the aural equivalent of 10 sugars in your tea.

 

I hope you are still using your in-ears Bas, you don't have to share their sugary drinks

 

 

[Al Krow]

Yes, our singer uses wireless in ears and spent a fair bit of time out front. She's also one of the "just one-in" in ear brigade, so has the other ear listening to ambient sound.

 

It was actually the dep guitarist, who's a mate of mine, who relayed that he and she had both thought it "sounded better". Tbf she's since clarified that it was more to do with the balance of the sound, rather than the quality of the sound, and the PA being able to give her vocals sufficient prominence which she found easy to get right at sound check. Our regular comment from the audience historically has been to turn up her vocals (and, yes, she's got excellent mic technique and is a trained singer) in the mix, although I'm getting more proficient at sorting the desk settings out these days. 

 

Interestingly the guitarists I've been working with who have struggled most to get a sound they like when going through the PA without backline have all been using Helix Stomps. There's often a harshness to the tone which they have to work hard to address, or end up giving up trying and switch to another mulitfx eg Kemper in one case. The two guitarists I work with who are using the Boss GT 1000 / Core have found a sound they liked much more quickly out of the box. This may partly be down to the 2015 Helix chip set being relatively long in the tooth now?

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Al Krow

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Yes, our singer uses wireless in ears and spent a fair bit of time out front. She's also one of the "just one-in" in ear brigade, so has the other ear listening to ambient sound.

 

It was actually the dep guitarist, who's a mate of mine, who relayed that he and she had both thought it "sounded better". Tbf she's since clarified that it was more to do with the balance of the sound, rather than the quality of the sound, and the PA being able to give her vocals sufficient prominence which she found easy to get right at sound check. Our regular comment from the audience historically has been to turn up her vocals (and, yes, she got excellent mic technique and is a trained singer) in the mix, although I'm getting more proficient at sorting the desk settings out these days. 

 

Interestingly the guitarists I've been working with who have struggled most to get a sound they like when going through the PA without backline have all been using Helix Stomps. There's often a harshness to the tone which they have to work hard to address,  or give up on and switch to another mulitfx eg Kemper in one case. The two guitarists using the Boss GT 1000 / Core have found a sound they liked much more quickly out of the box. This may partly be down to the 2015 Helix chip set being relatively long in the tooth now?

That's really interesting. I know your singer from the clips you've sent me and if she ever moves down to the West country I'd steal her She is good!

 

So she's using the in-ears as just a back up for when the on stage sound is difficult and/or for a bit 'more me'. Both mine do the same and I can't wean them off it. though Lucy has got a good sound when using my in-ears and did like that. In fact she's asked to go back to 'can we use your mixer' where she last used in-ears so i think the problem is at least partly that she's lost the control of her mix. We are currently using the guitarist's XR18 for mixing. It's his new toy and I didn't have the heart to say no lets use mine. Got to keep the troops happy Guitarist is the only one not using in-ears and on the mix he likes to make it complicated. I'm a KISS person. Also we all have iPhones and the personal monitoring apps are non-exitent or glitchy with the X18's

 

I sympathise with the guitarists generally. The modellers are good and getting better but not quite identical with the amps they emulate. However for the audience different is often better. It's a bit much though to ask a weekend warrior who has spent thousands on getting 'their' sound to give up using their pride and joy. In my other band the guitarist mic's his cab.

 

For you though I think your next step might be a new mixer

[Al Krow]

Thanks Phil, I agree, she's fab and we're very lucky to have someone of her vocal (and keys playing!) ability being a founder member and fronting our band.

 

Yes, indeed, a new mixer is definitely going to be the next major piece of kit.

 

Btw - I did offer the backline option to the guitarist/band. The response from them was a nuanced and balanced one i.e. maybe to consider doing at some but not all venues we're playing at. It's something we'll be discussing further and keeping in view. 

[NikNik]

I first experienced a silent stage back in 2018, out in Denmark. It was a festival, and as the bands rotated, this bunch of young guys (can't mind their name) and the techs wheeled in. No speakers, just Kemper profilers, and the drummer played an electric kit. From stage right, the experience was bizarre: all you could hear was the FOH, and I felt weird. The only stage noise was the drummer hitting his pads. I can't imagine playing in that environment, no air being moved.

[dave_bass5]

Ive never played a silent stage, but last weekend one of the bands I play with had a silent rehearsal room (except for drums, which we mic'ed up) for about an hour. I took my XR18 and IEM's, others brought theirs. We had full backline but had decided to see what all this client stuff is about.

 

Most were ok with this, but said it lacked a bit of life. I, on the other hand really enjoyed it. We took a break and was discussing this (it was never my idea in the first place, but I'm all for it) and I suggested to the chief 'moaner' that he try my system. Should have seen the smile on his face when we started up.

The only difference was I was using stereo, and had the instruments panned to just where I wanted them (and my bass in the middle), everyone else was mono. I tired the singers and it sounded pants to me. I get many people use mono, but it just didn't sound inspiring. 

[Chienmortbb]

21 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

I get many people use mono, but it just didn't sound inspiring. 

I wonder why this is. The audience never get a real stereo experience but maybe the volume makes it more immersive?